1 00:00:23,870 --> 00:00:07,150 [Music] 2 00:00:26,990 --> 00:00:23,880 you're in the pair test the gold 3 00:00:32,260 --> 00:00:27,000 standard of paranormal radio and now 4 00:00:36,470 --> 00:00:34,550 you're in the power cast with gene 5 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:36,480 Steinberg our co-host is Chris O'Brien 6 00:00:42,050 --> 00:00:38,910 and there was a comment on iTunes 7 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:42,060 reviewing the para cast recently saying 8 00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:44,790 you know what we're so skeptical that I 9 00:00:49,460 --> 00:00:47,100 can't get any guests except for my close 10 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:49,470 friends and I think who are my close 11 00:00:53,869 --> 00:00:51,450 friends so let's see well for example 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:53,879 Stan Friedman's one of my close friends 13 00:00:57,110 --> 00:00:55,890 Jerome Clark is a friend not a close 14 00:01:00,290 --> 00:00:57,120 friend but somebody I've known for many 15 00:01:01,970 --> 00:01:00,300 years gyah Moseley Alan Greenfield Tim 16 00:01:04,189 --> 00:01:01,980 Beck Lee G there's a lot of people I 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:04,199 know who come on the show so I guess if 18 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:06,210 I stay with my close friends I'm doing 19 00:01:11,570 --> 00:01:08,310 pretty well and today I've got another 20 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:11,580 friend and at one time we knew each 21 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:12,690 other quite well 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:15,270 but we haven't talked in over 40 years 23 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:18,090 and you wonder we have actually spent 24 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:20,850 prior to this interview about six or 25 00:01:23,690 --> 00:01:22,020 seven minutes on the phone getting 26 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:23,700 reacquainted and now that we're really 27 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:26,070 I'll acquaint him with you because he's 28 00:01:30,410 --> 00:01:28,170 someone maybe you haven't heard about 29 00:01:33,649 --> 00:01:30,420 but he has a lot of knowledge and has 30 00:01:34,789 --> 00:01:33,659 done extensive research into UFOs and 31 00:01:37,609 --> 00:01:34,799 related mysteries 32 00:01:40,279 --> 00:01:37,619 he's Dave Halperin he's author of a new 33 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:40,289 book called Journal of a UFO 34 00:01:45,230 --> 00:01:42,420 investigator which happens to be a novel 35 00:01:47,209 --> 00:01:45,240 we'll get to the book later on Dave 45 36 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:47,219 years later how's it going man 37 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:52,710 enjoying life dude so tell me what 38 00:02:01,279 --> 00:01:56,090 you've done in the past 45 years oh dear 39 00:02:04,310 --> 00:02:01,289 well I started out as a teenage UFO 40 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:04,320 investigator about in the early and 41 00:02:11,470 --> 00:02:07,200 middle 60s and that was when we knew 42 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:11,480 each other fairly well and then later my 43 00:02:17,330 --> 00:02:14,580 UFO interest waned and I became 44 00:02:20,410 --> 00:02:17,340 interested in other things like the 45 00:02:24,170 --> 00:02:20,420 wheels of the prophet Ezekiel and 46 00:02:27,650 --> 00:02:24,180 traditions of heavenly ascension and 47 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:27,660 otherworldly journeys and unlike UFOs 48 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:30,050 these were things which back in the 49 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:34,080 1970s it was possible to go to graduate 50 00:02:40,580 --> 00:02:36,590 school and study and write a PhD 51 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:40,590 dissertation and get a job in my case in 52 00:02:44,090 --> 00:02:42,570 the Department of Religious Studies at 53 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:44,100 the University 54 00:02:51,830 --> 00:02:48,120 North Carolina at Chapel Hill and even 55 00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:51,840 get tenure in it and once I got tenure I 56 00:02:59,360 --> 00:02:56,640 began to think about what I guess is 57 00:03:02,090 --> 00:02:59,370 pretty obvious that these interests 58 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:02,100 although perfectly respectable 59 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:04,530 academically are pretty closely related 60 00:03:10,310 --> 00:03:08,010 to my teenage UFO interest you never ran 61 00:03:14,420 --> 00:03:10,320 away from that original interest in UFOs 62 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:14,430 or if I ran away it followed me it has a 63 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:16,650 habit of doing that I've tried over and 64 00:03:20,270 --> 00:03:18,630 over through the years to give up UFO 65 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:20,280 research I do it for a few years and 66 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:23,010 then somehow it drags me back in back in 67 00:03:28,130 --> 00:03:26,850 2006 I was dragged in not kicking and 68 00:03:31,460 --> 00:03:28,140 screaming and that's where the power 69 00:03:35,030 --> 00:03:31,470 cast started anyway okay so let's go 70 00:03:36,980 --> 00:03:35,040 back to the teenage UFO years in reality 71 00:03:40,910 --> 00:03:36,990 and we'll look at the novel later on but 72 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:40,920 back in the 60s back in the 70s young 73 00:03:45,980 --> 00:03:42,930 people were attracted to things like 74 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:45,990 UFOs why was it something that was wrong 75 00:03:50,660 --> 00:03:48,390 with us why were retracted you and i 76 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:50,670 inau in greenfield jerome Clark 77 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:52,580 Tim Beckley all these people being 78 00:03:58,850 --> 00:03:55,650 interested in the possibility that we're 79 00:04:01,580 --> 00:03:58,860 being visited by ET I can't be clear I 80 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:01,590 can only speak for myself and I will 81 00:04:09,020 --> 00:04:04,530 tell you exactly how I got drawn into it 82 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:09,030 in the fall of 1960 when I was 12 going 83 00:04:16,610 --> 00:04:13,470 on 13 I read a book and this was gray 84 00:04:17,330 --> 00:04:16,620 bar kurz they knew too much about flying 85 00:04:22,190 --> 00:04:17,340 saucers 86 00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:22,200 I remember being pleased by the 87 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:26,700 conviction that this was the truth that 88 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:29,970 flying saucers had to be real because 89 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:33,090 otherwise why were three men in black 90 00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:35,760 going around silencing people about it I 91 00:04:41,690 --> 00:04:39,510 know I know this because I've reread a 92 00:04:44,780 --> 00:04:41,700 column I wrote for my school newspaper 93 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:44,790 on flying saucers I didn't yet call them 94 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:48,720 UFOs that initially I didn't believe 95 00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:51,510 they were from other planets so that the 96 00:04:57,290 --> 00:04:54,720 subject fascinated me not because I 97 00:05:00,619 --> 00:04:57,300 thought they were extraterrestrial 98 00:05:03,619 --> 00:05:00,629 for some other reason and I think I can 99 00:05:04,270 --> 00:05:03,629 guess at that reason now I will tell you 100 00:05:07,460 --> 00:05:04,280 this 101 00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:07,470 knowing that probably anybody who reads 102 00:05:14,719 --> 00:05:09,720 my novel can guess that this part is 103 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:14,729 autobiographical that in a household 104 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:18,210 which is a family consisting of me my 105 00:05:25,909 --> 00:05:21,330 father and my mother we had a terrible 106 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:25,919 secret that none of us dared to speak 107 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:29,250 with each other about and that was that 108 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:33,090 my mother was not merely a semi invalid 109 00:05:41,209 --> 00:05:36,090 as we called her but that she was slowly 110 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:41,219 dying of an incurable heart disease so 111 00:05:46,659 --> 00:05:44,430 when I read grey Barker's stories about 112 00:05:50,209 --> 00:05:46,669 the terrible secret 113 00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:50,219 that three men in black visit you if you 114 00:05:57,589 --> 00:05:53,310 either come even close to it and force 115 00:06:01,999 --> 00:05:57,599 you not to talk about it this seemed to 116 00:06:05,149 --> 00:06:02,009 me a true and faithful mirror of reality 117 00:06:07,580 --> 00:06:05,159 as I know it and the reality that nobody 118 00:06:11,689 --> 00:06:07,590 else would talk about so for that reason 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:11,699 I became convinced this was real in 120 00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:13,770 retrospect I think more and more people 121 00:06:19,129 --> 00:06:16,500 realize that grey Barker was a very good 122 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:19,139 storyteller he take the truth and 123 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:21,449 sometimes add a little bit more than the 124 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:23,430 truth to his stories to his books to his 125 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:25,590 magazine articles more so as he got 126 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:27,690 older did you come to that realization 127 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:30,270 to at any point in time oh I think so 128 00:06:35,689 --> 00:06:32,550 but I think there's something else true 129 00:06:38,540 --> 00:06:35,699 that grey Barker had his own secret can 130 00:06:40,790 --> 00:06:38,550 we talk about that absolutely we had a 131 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:40,800 story here as a matter of fact we had an 132 00:06:46,070 --> 00:06:43,110 episode we featured the movie shades of 133 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:46,080 grey this yet biography of grey Barker 134 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:49,440 about his life and yes we had Jim Mosley 135 00:06:53,779 --> 00:06:52,080 on we had people who knew gray Barker in 136 00:06:56,180 --> 00:06:53,789 addition to Jim's so certainly there are 137 00:06:58,010 --> 00:06:56,190 no secrets here yes and the secret no 138 00:07:00,800 --> 00:06:58,020 longer seems quite as terrible as it 139 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:00,810 would have in the 1950s on the secret 140 00:07:05,689 --> 00:07:03,210 for those of you listeners who are not 141 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:05,699 familiar with it is that grey Barker was 142 00:07:10,159 --> 00:07:07,889 gay and let's hope that we're moving 143 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:10,169 into an era in which 144 00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:12,150 one can even understand why that should 145 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:15,960 be kept secret at all but certainly in 146 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:20,430 the context of West Virginia around the 147 00:07:27,129 --> 00:07:23,460 middle of the last century gray Barker 148 00:07:30,830 --> 00:07:27,139 was carrying a terrific terrible 149 00:07:33,379 --> 00:07:30,840 unreviewable secret and I think that 150 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:33,389 whatever his distortions whatever its 151 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:36,930 fabrication whatever his let's call it 152 00:07:42,670 --> 00:07:38,969 let's give it the finest term we can 153 00:07:46,309 --> 00:07:42,680 miss making was in that book it's 154 00:07:49,659 --> 00:07:46,319 informed by his own terrible secret and 155 00:07:52,490 --> 00:07:49,669 that gives it the feel of authenticity 156 00:07:55,129 --> 00:07:52,500 so in a sense knowing he had to keep a 157 00:07:57,110 --> 00:07:55,139 terrible secret he could extrapolate and 158 00:07:59,689 --> 00:07:57,120 see how other people were keeping their 159 00:08:01,879 --> 00:07:59,699 own terrible secrets again assuming that 160 00:08:04,159 --> 00:08:01,889 the secret at one time was considered 161 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:04,169 terrible of course it's not today yeah 162 00:08:08,659 --> 00:08:06,750 oh he could let's just put it a little 163 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:08,669 bit differently from the way you did 164 00:08:16,249 --> 00:08:13,650 that he could infuse whatever may have 165 00:08:19,519 --> 00:08:16,259 happened to Albert bender and perhaps 166 00:08:23,749 --> 00:08:19,529 the other people he writes about with an 167 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:23,759 authentic feeling of terror and the need 168 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:26,490 to keep something secret and I think it 169 00:08:34,490 --> 00:08:30,810 was this authentic feeling that spoke to 170 00:08:38,990 --> 00:08:34,500 me when I read his book and convinced me 171 00:08:43,819 --> 00:08:39,000 yes this is the truth the people who say 172 00:08:46,819 --> 00:08:43,829 these things are not real they liar with 173 00:08:48,650 --> 00:08:46,829 regard to UFOs I think a lot of people 174 00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:48,660 came to that realization for different 175 00:08:53,930 --> 00:08:50,760 reasons but do you believe there really 176 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:53,940 are or were men in black oh boy I am 177 00:09:01,819 --> 00:08:56,310 hesitating here because innocent the 178 00:09:04,689 --> 00:09:01,829 answer is no and yes and no I think then 179 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:04,699 there was probably visited by somebody I 180 00:09:11,689 --> 00:09:08,130 don't know who or why I've read Mike 181 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:11,699 Swords theory that government read 182 00:09:18,139 --> 00:09:14,010 hunters this was the McCarthy era of 183 00:09:21,710 --> 00:09:18,149 course 1953 the government read hunters 184 00:09:23,420 --> 00:09:21,720 picked up on the name of benders 185 00:09:26,450 --> 00:09:23,430 organization the 186 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:26,460 International Flying Saucer Bureau the 187 00:09:31,190 --> 00:09:29,130 word international wrangle arm bells 188 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:31,200 they thought it was a communist front 189 00:09:37,370 --> 00:09:34,410 organization and stopped by to find out 190 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:37,380 that to me is the most plausible theory 191 00:09:42,110 --> 00:09:39,570 and will go into my theories in a moment 192 00:09:44,389 --> 00:09:42,120 we have David Halperin his new book is 193 00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:44,399 called Journal of a UFO investigator 194 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:47,040 it's a novel about the teen UFO years 195 00:09:50,389 --> 00:09:49,050 I'm gonna ask him if I'm in the book 196 00:09:53,510 --> 00:09:50,399 because I'll tell you why in a moment 197 00:10:02,090 --> 00:09:53,520 I'm gene Steinberg you're in the para 198 00:10:04,430 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calm 282 00:14:06,189 --> 00:14:02,980 the gzn radio network providing the 283 00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:06,199 world with hard-hitting talk radio G C 284 00:14:15,879 --> 00:14:14,060 and gray talk radio starts here we want 285 00:14:18,009 --> 00:14:15,889 to hear from you if you have a comment 286 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:18,019 or question about the pair cast send it 287 00:14:24,670 --> 00:14:21,230 to news at the Peres cast calm 288 00:14:26,379 --> 00:14:24,680 that's news at Lapera cast calm and 289 00:14:29,050 --> 00:14:26,389 don't forget to visit our famous pair of 290 00:14:32,439 --> 00:14:29,060 cast community forums at forum dot the 291 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:32,449 podcast.com get in on all the action at 292 00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:38,180 forum dot the Peres cast comm Chris 293 00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,040 O'Brien's the co-host I'm Jean Steinberg 294 00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,079 you're in the power cast we return with 295 00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:44,959 Dave Halperin my old friend from 296 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:48,560 Pennsylvania as a matter of fact who has 297 00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:51,110 been studying UFOs on and off for many 298 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:53,360 many decades he's author of a new book 299 00:14:59,319 --> 00:14:55,310 called Journal of a UFO investigator a 300 00:15:00,819 --> 00:14:59,329 novel based on the teen UFO years and 301 00:15:03,699 --> 00:15:00,829 we're talking about his belief his 302 00:15:05,230 --> 00:15:03,709 belief systems and about right now the 303 00:15:06,999 --> 00:15:05,240 men in black and we started with gray 304 00:15:09,429 --> 00:15:07,009 Barker and the book they knew too much 305 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:09,439 about flying saucers which was his 306 00:15:14,860 --> 00:15:11,569 bestseller that made him famous and 307 00:15:17,019 --> 00:15:14,870 probably he lived on that that fame more 308 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:17,029 or less for pretty much the rest of his 309 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:19,910 life although he was not wealthy by any 310 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:21,410 means but that's another story as 311 00:15:27,009 --> 00:15:24,769 contained in the documentary Shades of 312 00:15:29,050 --> 00:15:27,019 Grey anyway okay so you think that maybe 313 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:29,060 not three men in black but government 314 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:31,130 agents came to Albert bender and just 315 00:15:35,650 --> 00:15:33,110 we're curious as to what he was doing 316 00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:35,660 that he didn't just make it all up 317 00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:36,860 that's my guess 318 00:15:43,569 --> 00:15:39,519 do I believe in the three men in black 319 00:15:46,929 --> 00:15:43,579 how about if we transfer that from 320 00:15:50,799 --> 00:15:46,939 belief in them as flesh and blood human 321 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:50,809 beings or entities in this tangible 322 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:51,350 world 323 00:15:58,410 --> 00:15:54,610 to some sort of psychological pattern 324 00:16:00,940 --> 00:15:58,420 there tends to emerge in different time 325 00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:00,950 okay now you're raising some interesting 326 00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:03,800 possibilities here okay so we're moving 327 00:16:08,410 --> 00:16:06,500 in one area physical men in black or 328 00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:08,420 government agents dressed in darker 329 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:10,310 black suits and now you're talking about 330 00:16:17,470 --> 00:16:13,570 something psychological in what sense 331 00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:17,480 probably Jungian archetypes okay let me 332 00:16:22,030 --> 00:16:18,950 tell you where I'm going with this 333 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:22,040 sure that one of the people I've been 334 00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:24,050 working with that I've been studying 335 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:26,720 over the past ten years or so was a 336 00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:30,890 Jewish mystic a Kabbalist from the 17th 337 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:34,720 century named Abraham Miguel Cardozo and 338 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:40,510 one night in 1683 Cardozo has a vision 339 00:16:48,430 --> 00:16:45,260 he sees four people on the moon three 340 00:16:52,450 --> 00:16:48,440 men and a woman and he thinks he knows 341 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:52,460 who the three men are the three men come 342 00:17:00,460 --> 00:16:56,690 down from the moon straight into his 343 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:00,470 garden and afterwards into his bedroom 344 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:05,090 machines and there they discuss kabbalah 345 00:17:10,030 --> 00:17:08,420 they discuss theology with them and it 346 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:10,040 becomes clear that they're not the 347 00:17:15,070 --> 00:17:12,290 people he thought they were instead 348 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:15,080 they're demons who have been sent to 349 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:18,890 seduce him into heresy they challenge 350 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:23,510 him to have his gods and fire upon them 351 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:27,440 to burn them up which he can't do and 352 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:30,890 instead they're demon gods and fire upon 353 00:17:38,620 --> 00:17:34,790 Cardoso in the form of a burning fever 354 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:38,630 and he speaks at one point that these 355 00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:44,770 three black clad beings stood by my bed 356 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:47,150 I'm curious one question here very 357 00:17:51,790 --> 00:17:49,370 quickly they came down from the moon 358 00:17:55,390 --> 00:17:51,800 really in a craft of some sort or they 359 00:17:58,330 --> 00:17:55,400 just basically levitate he doesn't tell 360 00:18:00,340 --> 00:17:58,340 us and I'm quite sure he had no idea 361 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:00,350 that the moon was what is it two hundred 362 00:18:04,570 --> 00:18:01,970 and forty thousand two hundred and 363 00:18:07,070 --> 00:18:04,580 eighty thousand miles away 364 00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:07,080 my guess is he thought it was just 365 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:11,760 beyond the next fence but no he doesn't 366 00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:15,570 say a word about a craft so do you get 367 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:17,700 this sense here that he was writing of 368 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:19,770 something real or something that he 369 00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:24,210 dreamt what they are Luther nation okay 370 00:18:32,260 --> 00:18:26,790 I don't think he saw these as physical 371 00:18:36,340 --> 00:18:32,270 beings but I think when he saw them he 372 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:36,350 was experiencing something he'd seen in 373 00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:40,170 paintings from his shine sculpture from 374 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:43,740 his childhood and I need to say that 375 00:18:49,060 --> 00:18:46,050 Cardozo although he was Jewish was 376 00:18:54,110 --> 00:18:49,070 brought up as a Catholic in Spain in 377 00:18:57,620 --> 00:18:54,120 Spain there were myriad of paintings of 378 00:19:01,100 --> 00:18:57,630 sculptures of the Virgin Mary standing 379 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:01,110 on the moon often accompanied by three 380 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:05,130 male to Rubik heads and I think that a 381 00:19:12,290 --> 00:19:08,090 memory of what he'd seen as a child 382 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:12,300 erupted from his unconscious so we have 383 00:19:19,370 --> 00:19:16,050 this image of three men that goes 384 00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:19,380 through our religions - yeah 385 00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:22,980 and that I think is what an archetype is 386 00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:26,000 about it's something that's part of us 387 00:19:32,660 --> 00:19:29,190 that seems to transcend us as 388 00:19:34,910 --> 00:19:32,670 individuals in that sense it's outside 389 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:34,920 of this and that's that it's something 390 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:37,950 real and in that sense I can say yes I 391 00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:42,050 believe in the three men in black but as 392 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:47,190 visitors from inner space not from outer 393 00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:49,740 and not most basically from the 394 00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:51,960 government even though I mean benders 395 00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:53,580 visitors may have been from the 396 00:19:57,980 --> 00:19:56,400 government but and they and presumably 397 00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:57,990 they were real flesh-and-blood human 398 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:01,440 beings but that they get their power the 399 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:04,650 story gets its power from they're 400 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:08,750 fitting in with this archetype that 401 00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:12,660 Cardozo also experienced more than 300 402 00:20:15,860 --> 00:20:14,880 years ago so do you think that maybe 403 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:15,870 bender 404 00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:17,850 experience was partly physical and 405 00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:19,740 partly psychological that he framed it 406 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:21,960 in this way because of the archetype and 407 00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:24,690 the unconscious feelings here we have to 408 00:20:30,049 --> 00:20:28,470 get I think it's a possibility well you 409 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:30,059 know Chris bender wrote this book flying 410 00:20:35,210 --> 00:20:32,550 saucers and the three men where he 411 00:20:37,490 --> 00:20:35,220 claimed that the three men in black were 412 00:20:40,370 --> 00:20:37,500 really alien visitors from the planet k 413 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:40,380 ik and also he reported you know 414 00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:42,570 receiving some sort of sexually related 415 00:20:48,410 --> 00:20:45,600 treatment as part of this and having 416 00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,420 heard bender lecture about this it's not 417 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:50,400 something that gray Barker who published 418 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:52,770 the book just added to the tale may be 419 00:20:57,470 --> 00:20:55,410 Barker wrote it rewrote is extensively 420 00:21:01,100 --> 00:20:57,480 did a lot of editing but the core story 421 00:21:03,049 --> 00:21:01,110 was benders yep and I don't know what to 422 00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:03,059 make of that I mean I certainly don't 423 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:06,480 believe that it happened in what I guess 424 00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:08,850 Jerry Clark and others would call 425 00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:13,440 consensus reality okay yet I think it 426 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:15,440 may have some significance to 427 00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:18,120 understanding the meaning that the three 428 00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:21,720 men in black well it's very interesting 429 00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,750 too that we haven't heard so much lately 430 00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:27,360 of three men in black I mean certainly 431 00:21:31,790 --> 00:21:29,460 if you read the books of John keel he 432 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:31,800 had all sorts of stories about that he 433 00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:34,230 encountered evidence of people making 434 00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:36,080 fake phone calls things like that 435 00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:39,030 evidence of people encountering them but 436 00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:40,980 lately we don't hear it do you 437 00:21:47,030 --> 00:21:45,300 I am NOT okay now we did a show on the 438 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:47,040 men in black recently with Tim Buckley 439 00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:50,130 and Allen Greenfield and both went into 440 00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:52,790 areas where as a matter of fact they did 441 00:21:59,570 --> 00:21:57,420 encounter supposed people who may have 442 00:22:02,240 --> 00:21:59,580 been men in black and some of those 443 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:02,250 things kind of controversial and those 444 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:05,250 who we haven't heard the episode I'll 445 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:06,900 just ask your neighbors you know listen 446 00:22:11,419 --> 00:22:09,150 to the episode that we did on the men in 447 00:22:12,049 --> 00:22:11,429 black and make your own decisions ladies 448 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:12,059 and gentlemen 449 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:14,610 maybe you feel that Allen Greenfield for 450 00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:17,490 example believed a little too much when 451 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:20,190 he saw this person go around the corner 452 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:24,530 and suddenly he's gone or about the 453 00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:27,220 person seen outside the home 454 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:30,760 of the late Jack and Mary Robinson in 455 00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:34,000 Jersey City New Jersey you know what was 456 00:22:39,330 --> 00:22:36,700 that person that's a good question 457 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:39,340 that's a very good question we have Dave 458 00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,100 Halpern he is author of a book called 459 00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:44,320 Journal of the UFO investigator a novel 460 00:22:49,910 --> 00:22:47,380 about the team UFO years I'm Jean 461 00:22:59,690 --> 00:22:49,920 Steinberg you're in the para cast 462 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:02,220 don't complain about your cable bill 463 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:04,510 going up and up 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00:26:40,990 our cutting-edge alternative energy 562 00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:43,360 Tesla technology register early for the 563 00:26:47,970 --> 00:26:45,039 best seats in advanced workshop by 564 00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:47,980 visiting our charge comm that's our - 565 00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:51,100 charge comm for details or call two zero 566 00:26:56,129 --> 00:26:53,710 eight seven seven two four five one four 567 00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:56,139 that's two zero eight seven seven two 568 00:27:04,139 --> 00:27:01,600 four five one for America's number one 569 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:04,149 source for independent authoring for 570 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:05,650 over 571 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:13,360 we are the gcn radio network this is 572 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:15,520 Jerome Clark author of the UFO 573 00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:17,530 encyclopedia other books when you're 574 00:27:29,370 --> 00:27:26,860 listening to the podcast you're in the 575 00:27:31,530 --> 00:27:29,380 para cast with Jean Steinberg and Chris 576 00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:31,540 O'Brien who is now our permanent co-host 577 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:34,390 for those wondering he gets his gold 578 00:27:38,010 --> 00:27:36,010 watch next week no he doesn't he gets 579 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:38,020 his gold watch after 72 episodes and 580 00:27:41,730 --> 00:27:40,570 then he gives it back to me because we 581 00:27:43,380 --> 00:27:41,740 can only loan her to him we can't afford 582 00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:43,390 to back they buy one I think it's gonna 583 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:46,360 be one half scared old I'm sorry about 584 00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:48,910 that Chris our guest this week my old 585 00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:50,830 dear friend Dave Halperin we've 586 00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:52,600 rediscovered him after all these years 587 00:27:58,039 --> 00:27:55,900 I'm really happy to enjoy what he has to 588 00:28:01,680 --> 00:27:58,049 say the his extensive knowledge about 589 00:28:02,909 --> 00:28:01,690 ancient studies and UFOs he's offering a 590 00:28:04,770 --> 00:28:02,919 book called Journal of a UFO 591 00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:04,780 investigator now we were talking about 592 00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:08,440 physical and maybe not so physical men 593 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:12,640 in black but back to Albert K bender the 594 00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:15,490 book flying saucers in the three men so 595 00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:18,190 I want to basically believe this after 596 00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:20,830 this particular reference David do you 597 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:23,440 think that he actually had a physical 598 00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:26,110 encounter with aliens or is that part of 599 00:28:30,750 --> 00:28:28,030 the science fiction or part of his 600 00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,760 imagination in terms of believing and an 601 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:32,559 experience it didn't happen okay well I 602 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:35,650 can tell you I'm completely convinced he 603 00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:38,049 did not have an encounter physically 604 00:28:43,470 --> 00:28:39,340 with aliens 605 00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:43,480 now when that where his story comes from 606 00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:46,720 and what significance were to give to it 607 00:28:54,270 --> 00:28:50,260 in making sense of Endor himself I don't 608 00:28:57,659 --> 00:28:54,280 know it is really striking to me gene 609 00:29:00,360 --> 00:28:57,669 that you refer you I think you're 610 00:29:03,659 --> 00:29:00,370 referring to that episode where he's 611 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:03,669 taken aboard a UFO and there's three 612 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:06,580 women wearing tight uniforms and they 613 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:10,650 massage every part of his body without 614 00:29:15,270 --> 00:29:13,330 exception oh yeah 615 00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:15,280 remember William Moseley review that 616 00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:19,240 book in saucer news and he was going 617 00:29:24,540 --> 00:29:21,100 wild over that segment as you might 618 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:24,550 expect and it's only one incidental 619 00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:28,410 throwaway remark and we only can infer 620 00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:31,780 what went on from that without exception 621 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:34,600 and I can't remember whether bender 622 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:38,140 italicizes that or not and yet I think 623 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:41,620 probably Mosley's instinct was correct 624 00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:46,810 that that experience with the three 625 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:50,200 women or the imagined experience as I 626 00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:53,710 would think was something pivotal the 627 00:30:00,240 --> 00:29:57,480 Bender's story so you think that sexual 628 00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:00,250 innuendo there that has something to do 629 00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:03,700 with the original report of being 630 00:30:08,130 --> 00:30:06,100 visited by three men that I don't know 631 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:08,140 and I don't know I don't know how these 632 00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:10,450 things fit together but it does strike 633 00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:14,710 me that that all that unobtrusive remark 634 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:17,950 of benders seems to be so well 635 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:21,370 remembered and I really believe that how 636 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:25,810 people receive what you say how people 637 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:29,530 report what you say may point to the 638 00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:33,250 inner meaning of what you've said am i 639 00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:36,040 coming across here oh yeah I think I 640 00:30:41,250 --> 00:30:37,600 understand perfectly what you're saying 641 00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:41,260 Chris yeah well okay let's look at some 642 00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:43,300 of the definitions here we seem to see 643 00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:46,420 that these beings whoever they are seem 644 00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:48,700 to come in groups of three is there some 645 00:30:53,250 --> 00:30:51,310 symbolism about that well what strikes 646 00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:53,260 me and the reason why I raised that with 647 00:30:58,740 --> 00:30:56,440 you is that as far as I know benders the 648 00:31:01,080 --> 00:30:58,750 only one who experiences them as three 649 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:01,090 and correct me if I'm wrong here but I 650 00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:03,490 don't recall another case of the number 651 00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:06,760 three actually occurring in the lore and 652 00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:11,200 yet we remember them as three which 653 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:13,200 leads me to think there was something 654 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:16,110 archetypal about that number something 655 00:31:24,330 --> 00:31:20,410 connected with Cardozo's three men in 656 00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:24,340 black from the moon and the model that I 657 00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:26,380 would use to interpret it 658 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:29,309 would be the Jungian archetype of the 659 00:31:37,230 --> 00:31:32,850 quaternary that there is something 660 00:31:39,299 --> 00:31:37,240 embedded in our I'm gonna go so far as 661 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:39,309 to say collective psyche though I know 662 00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,010 I'm getting on to the two extremely thin 663 00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:44,559 ice here something embedded in our 664 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:47,200 collective psyche that sees a 665 00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:51,010 significance in the number-four of which 666 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:54,580 the fourth member is different from the 667 00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:57,330 other three and where you've got a 668 00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:01,360 threesome it may be a quaternary that's 669 00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:05,470 been in some way mutilated and a bridge 670 00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:08,980 now if you ask me who is the fourth to 671 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:11,950 benders three men in black I've got to 672 00:32:19,710 --> 00:32:15,490 admit I don't know but I think the 673 00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:19,720 persistence of that number suggests that 674 00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:23,200 there's something about it that our 675 00:32:28,649 --> 00:32:26,140 psyches respond to that makes sense to 676 00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:28,659 me I you know you don't have to worry 677 00:32:33,659 --> 00:32:30,820 about talking about you around me I'm a 678 00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:33,669 I'm a real an affection Otto in fact I 679 00:32:37,770 --> 00:32:35,830 got a copy of the red book I don't know 680 00:32:42,270 --> 00:32:37,780 if you've heard about this but all his 681 00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:42,280 journals 1916 through 1932 were released 682 00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:44,350 by the family in this huge two foot tall 683 00:32:50,820 --> 00:32:48,520 book and and you know i think i think 684 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:50,830 for mainstream nuts-and-bolts ufology 685 00:32:54,390 --> 00:32:53,049 does not get a fair shake I think there 686 00:32:56,399 --> 00:32:54,400 is something to the collective 687 00:32:57,930 --> 00:32:56,409 unconscious I don't care what Jerry 688 00:33:00,270 --> 00:32:57,940 Clark says I don't care what Sam 689 00:33:02,130 --> 00:33:00,280 Friedman says there they're missing the 690 00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:02,140 boat as far as I'm concerned there's 691 00:33:08,669 --> 00:33:06,400 tremendous importance in examining the 692 00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:08,679 collective human unconscious as a result 693 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:11,289 as it relates to paranormal subjects and 694 00:33:15,450 --> 00:33:13,210 especially ufology so I applaud you on 695 00:33:18,930 --> 00:33:15,460 that analogy but now I have to ask you a 696 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:18,940 question Chris did Jerry deny the 697 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:22,090 relevance of Jung or simply deny that 698 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:25,809 this was the core of the mystery well 699 00:33:31,049 --> 00:33:28,770 it's it's funny in one I think in one 700 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:31,059 breath he was saying that there's no 701 00:33:35,490 --> 00:33:32,890 such thing as a collective unconscious 702 00:33:38,030 --> 00:33:35,500 that he didn't believe that and then he 703 00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:38,040 went on to describe a scenario 704 00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:40,320 we're something akin to an 705 00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:43,620 out-of-the-box theory has has all of us 706 00:33:49,550 --> 00:33:46,380 sort of manifesting this together which 707 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:49,560 sounds like he was denying it and in 708 00:33:55,250 --> 00:33:51,690 agreeing with it in the same practically 709 00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:55,260 the same breath so no he really he was 710 00:34:01,790 --> 00:33:59,010 really down on valet and and young and 711 00:34:04,430 --> 00:34:01,800 and just the whole idea of collective 712 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:04,440 collectively manifesting phenomena which 713 00:34:10,780 --> 00:34:07,050 i think is going on personally yeah I 714 00:34:15,650 --> 00:34:10,790 mean I certainly am drawn to young 715 00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:15,660 despite that I find his mr. Gajic style 716 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:18,960 of writing very off-putting yeah I keep 717 00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:21,690 in my research I just keep running into 718 00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:25,620 data that I need young to correlate and 719 00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:28,260 explain like the three men from the moon 720 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:30,300 accompanied by a woman that I thought 721 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:32,940 with Jean about earlier whom the Jewish 722 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:37,110 mystic Abraham Cardozo sees in 1683 III 723 00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:39,210 I think I have my differences with Jerry 724 00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:41,880 but I'm not sure they from my own 725 00:34:45,770 --> 00:34:43,679 perspective that they're quite that 726 00:34:48,190 --> 00:34:45,780 sharp it's just that to me it's just a 727 00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:48,200 question of emphasis that he sees the 728 00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:51,360 essential issue as being the event 729 00:34:57,010 --> 00:34:55,200 anomaly which I guess I I don't know 730 00:35:00,250 --> 00:34:57,020 that I'm qualified to talk about 731 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:00,260 although I tend to be skeptical about it 732 00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:04,890 whereas I see the essence as being in 733 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:08,220 the experience anomaly and what inside 734 00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:12,930 us that may be coming from well I really 735 00:35:16,990 --> 00:35:14,760 do feel that we have to be looking at 736 00:35:20,350 --> 00:35:17,000 these things from an out-of-the-box 737 00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:20,360 perspective and I think Jung's you know 738 00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:22,380 although I don't agree with everything 739 00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:26,550 that he postulates and and I do have a 740 00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:29,040 problem with some of his languaging as 741 00:35:34,070 --> 00:35:31,500 you do I do really have a sense that 742 00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:34,080 there is a collective manifestation of 743 00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:36,870 phenomenon going on and the human mind 744 00:35:42,980 --> 00:35:39,780 tends to revert to archetypal primals 745 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:42,990 symbols and when when it's faced with 746 00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:46,170 the unknown and and and I found that 747 00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:47,760 I've interviewed thousands of witnesses 748 00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:49,950 as a field investigator over the years 749 00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:50,510 and 750 00:35:58,030 --> 00:35:55,460 people to get very basic when they 751 00:36:00,280 --> 00:35:58,040 describe their emotional state after an 752 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:00,290 experience when they describe the 753 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:02,510 details of something that is in their 754 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:06,170 mind fear-based especially and you see 755 00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:07,730 it in the New Age as well there's a 756 00:36:14,370 --> 00:36:09,430 there seems to be a knee-jerk reaction 757 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:14,380 to this stuff to go to very positive 758 00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:17,510 archetypal symbols archetypal symbols 759 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:20,000 and and this is something again I don't 760 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:23,210 really feel gets enough attention in 761 00:36:28,780 --> 00:36:26,090 this field and I and I you know thank 762 00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:28,790 thank you for for bringing this up i 763 00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:31,369 this is an important issue for me we'll 764 00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:32,660 get into more of this in a moment we 765 00:36:37,660 --> 00:36:35,150 have David Halpern author of a novel 766 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:37,670 journal of a UFO investigator a longtime 767 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:40,910 researcher into UFOs especially 768 00:36:44,590 --> 00:36:43,130 involving ancient studies and so forth 769 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:44,600 and so on we'll get to that in a moment 770 00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:46,850 I'm Jean Steinberg the co-host is Chris 771 00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,440 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00:40:47,999 eight two nine dan pillow will solve 871 00:40:52,009 --> 00:40:50,369 your tax problem guaranteed he's helped 872 00:40:55,759 --> 00:40:52,019 thousands of people and he can help you 873 00:40:57,170 --> 00:40:55,769 too call us today at 834 six six eight 874 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:57,180 twenty nine that's eight hundred 875 00:41:04,009 --> 00:41:01,440 thirty-four no tax are you tired of 876 00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:04,019 searching for great talk radio helping 877 00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:06,160 you more important search through 878 00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:41,680 we are the GCM radio network we returned 879 00:41:45,839 --> 00:41:44,319 with David Halperin I'm Jean Steinberg 880 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:45,849 the co-host is Chris O'Brien you're in 881 00:41:52,759 --> 00:41:48,490 the para cast we're exploring now all 882 00:41:56,370 --> 00:41:52,769 sorts of images and beliefs about UFOs 883 00:41:59,309 --> 00:41:56,380 about ancient studies how they may 884 00:42:02,069 --> 00:41:59,319 relate to modern studies do you think if 885 00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:02,079 we have physical UFOs David that they 886 00:42:08,609 --> 00:42:04,960 were here when Ezekiel saw the wheels as 887 00:42:10,529 --> 00:42:08,619 depicted in the Bible no no I mean in 888 00:42:13,259 --> 00:42:10,539 here I would totally agree with Jerry 889 00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:13,269 that what we've got in Ezekiel's vision 890 00:42:18,749 --> 00:42:16,960 is I guess we call I'm not even sure I 891 00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:18,759 would yeah I guess I would call it an 892 00:42:26,910 --> 00:42:23,470 experience anomaly because I spent much 893 00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:26,920 of my life studying that vision and the 894 00:42:32,009 --> 00:42:29,470 spin off of that vision in Jewish 895 00:42:35,999 --> 00:42:32,019 tradition and I've got to tell you I 896 00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:36,009 still don't understand it I don't see it 897 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:39,119 as a machine I don't see it as anything 898 00:42:45,329 --> 00:42:42,400 extraterrestrial I think I know the 899 00:42:48,749 --> 00:42:45,339 direction on which I try to understand 900 00:42:51,089 --> 00:42:48,759 the zekiel wheels but when I try to 901 00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:51,099 explain the details of the vision 902 00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:52,240 verse-by-verse 903 00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:56,500 I find myself baffled interesting what 904 00:43:00,569 --> 00:42:58,450 about it doesn't work for you well take 905 00:43:03,029 --> 00:43:00,579 the take the wheels themselves 906 00:43:05,220 --> 00:43:03,039 what are these wheels I mean this song 907 00:43:08,009 --> 00:43:05,230 that they the spiritual that's based on 908 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:08,019 the chapter Ezekiel saw the wheel so way 909 00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:10,690 up in the middle of the air is much so 910 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:15,160 sounds much more ufo-like than the than 911 00:43:19,359 --> 00:43:17,710 the vision it said that an zekiel 912 00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,369 description itself 913 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:22,160 what ezekiel describes that i'm taking 914 00:43:29,049 --> 00:43:25,249 just a moment to open my Bible to that 915 00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:29,059 chapter he says that as I beheld the 916 00:43:35,259 --> 00:43:32,720 living creatures behold one wheel my 917 00:43:38,829 --> 00:43:35,269 translation says at the bottom but the 918 00:43:42,249 --> 00:43:38,839 Hebrew says on the earth hard by the 919 00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:42,259 living creatures at the four phases 920 00:43:51,279 --> 00:43:46,400 thereof now what does that mean 921 00:43:53,710 --> 00:43:51,289 what is a wheel on the earth why is it 922 00:43:57,249 --> 00:43:53,720 on the earth then in the vet that was 923 00:44:00,160 --> 00:43:57,259 verse 15 now in the very next verse the 924 00:44:03,370 --> 00:44:00,170 appearance of the wheels and their work 925 00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:03,380 was like unto the colour of the Barrow 926 00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:07,190 and they for had one likeness and their 927 00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:09,950 appearance and their work were as it 928 00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:12,710 were a wheel within a wheel how did we 929 00:44:17,769 --> 00:44:15,920 get from one wheel to four do you see 930 00:44:22,140 --> 00:44:17,779 the sort of problems that keep bugging 931 00:44:25,089 --> 00:44:22,150 me it's almost like a riddle yeah and I 932 00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:25,099 what while we're talking I have in front 933 00:44:31,180 --> 00:44:27,529 of me an illustration from the 934 00:44:33,999 --> 00:44:31,190 frontispiece of a book published in 1935 935 00:44:40,479 --> 00:44:34,009 studies in the book of ezekiel that 936 00:44:43,870 --> 00:44:40,489 shows a silver coin from gaza in the 937 00:44:45,759 --> 00:44:43,880 latter part of the 5th century BCE which 938 00:44:50,859 --> 00:44:45,769 would be about a hundred and fifty years 939 00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:50,869 after Ezekiel it shows a bearded human 940 00:44:58,509 --> 00:44:54,140 figure sitting on what seems to be a 941 00:45:01,779 --> 00:44:58,519 chariot which has both a very prominent 942 00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:01,789 wheel with four spokes and a very 943 00:45:10,509 --> 00:45:05,920 prominent wing between the wheel and the 944 00:45:13,089 --> 00:45:10,519 human-like figure and right around the 945 00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:13,099 face of this bearded figure are the 946 00:45:19,839 --> 00:45:16,849 three letters that Hebrew yards they 947 00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:19,849 evolved which seemed to me to indicate 948 00:45:24,220 --> 00:45:22,400 the Jewish God Yahweh 949 00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:24,230 so this looks like a picture of 950 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:28,160 Ezekiel's God riding a chariot with a 951 00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:30,410 wing and the wings are all over the 952 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:33,260 place in the first chapter of the deep 953 00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:36,890 and a very prominent wheel so I think 954 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:40,400 those are the lines along which were to 955 00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:42,650 look for an interpretation of what 956 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:45,680 Ezekiel reports in this chapter I don't 957 00:45:51,340 --> 00:45:49,450 think in terms of modern like a 958 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:51,350 technology extraterrestrial 959 00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:54,770 extraterrestrial at all but if I click 960 00:46:03,040 --> 00:45:58,960 that picture and apply it to the chapter 961 00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:03,050 there are the chapter says so much more 962 00:46:10,030 --> 00:46:06,400 and so much can that's so confusingly 963 00:46:12,340 --> 00:46:10,040 that I don't know just how to make the 964 00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:12,350 connection in the long and short of it 965 00:46:18,940 --> 00:46:15,110 David Halpern are we saying then that 966 00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:18,950 people like Erich von Daniken and even 967 00:46:23,110 --> 00:46:21,050 our old friend Jana Fortner from the 968 00:46:26,140 --> 00:46:23,120 days of saucer news when they talked 969 00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:26,150 about spaceships visiting in ancient 970 00:46:32,050 --> 00:46:28,780 times none of that is physically true 971 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:32,060 yeah I would say that I would absolutely 972 00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:36,410 say that now that doesn't mean if we're 973 00:46:44,650 --> 00:46:40,310 going back to our friend Jung that 974 00:46:48,990 --> 00:46:44,660 doesn't mean that Ezekiel's vision was 975 00:46:54,370 --> 00:46:49,000 not of UFOs that's an interesting note 976 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:54,380 paradox book that was written by the 977 00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:57,290 NASA scientist I think in the eighties I 978 00:47:03,250 --> 00:47:01,280 have a copy of it in boxes somewhere but 979 00:47:05,460 --> 00:47:03,260 it was an examination of the Ezekiel 980 00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:05,470 description which he was able to then 981 00:47:11,350 --> 00:47:08,560 kind of create this this strange-looking 982 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:11,360 contraption that is on the cover of the 983 00:47:18,460 --> 00:47:12,730 book do you remember that book gene 984 00:47:22,750 --> 00:47:18,470 offhand no little book about Ezekiel's 985 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:22,760 about the actual physical device that he 986 00:47:26,860 --> 00:47:25,490 felt was being described I'll have to do 987 00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:26,870 a little research on that while we're 988 00:47:30,790 --> 00:47:29,180 doing this in hell I mention it for our 989 00:47:33,580 --> 00:47:30,800 listeners it's a pretty interesting book 990 00:47:36,310 --> 00:47:33,590 but but again it flies in the face of 991 00:47:37,420 --> 00:47:36,320 what David saying here so let's let's 992 00:47:38,980 --> 00:47:37,430 continue your site didn't mean to 993 00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:38,990 interrupt I'll go find the title of this 994 00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:40,910 book well while we're talking I think 995 00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:44,510 the author is yourself broom Rick yeah 996 00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:45,830 I'm not sure he was an American NASA 997 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:48,110 scientist if I remember correctly I'll 998 00:47:55,570 --> 00:47:50,570 look it up okay so we'll hear the sound 999 00:47:57,610 --> 00:47:55,580 now of Chris O'Brien searching Google or 1000 00:47:59,590 --> 00:47:57,620 his vast library which he can't do 1001 00:48:03,010 --> 00:47:59,600 because he's not at his home office now 1002 00:48:06,220 --> 00:48:03,020 he's in California he's watching the 1003 00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:06,230 bikini clad babe oh yeah through his 1004 00:48:11,230 --> 00:48:09,320 picture window oh yeah I'm right on the 1005 00:48:14,170 --> 00:48:11,240 beach that's right he's talking to us 1006 00:48:15,610 --> 00:48:14,180 from the beach folks okay you know so we 1007 00:48:19,540 --> 00:48:15,620 always wondered about that whether this 1008 00:48:21,010 --> 00:48:19,550 guy is involved in the beach but now we 1009 00:48:23,620 --> 00:48:21,020 know that he wants to be a beach bum 1010 00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:23,630 which you can't do in Arizona okay so 1011 00:48:28,570 --> 00:48:25,310 let's go back to what we're talking 1012 00:48:30,670 --> 00:48:28,580 about here David okay so if the ancient 1013 00:48:33,340 --> 00:48:30,680 events that we see in the Bible and 1014 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:33,350 elsewhere if they're not physical UFO 1015 00:48:37,420 --> 00:48:35,570 visitations you know rather than going 1016 00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:37,430 in to various causes that we've already 1017 00:48:42,490 --> 00:48:39,560 started covering when do you think the 1018 00:48:45,490 --> 00:48:42,500 UFO mystery as a physical phenomenon if 1019 00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:45,500 it is a physical phenomenon began okay 1020 00:48:52,270 --> 00:48:48,550 and there I think I would start us with 1021 00:48:54,610 --> 00:48:52,280 1947 when it becomes and I'm not sure if 1022 00:48:57,610 --> 00:48:54,620 I would say as a physical phenomenon but 1023 00:49:01,300 --> 00:48:57,620 as a cultural phenomenon I mean people 1024 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:01,310 have seen odd things in the skies going 1025 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:03,410 away way back there's no question about 1026 00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:06,170 that but it seems to be with the Kenneth 1027 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:09,310 Arnold sighting that it's become an 1028 00:49:15,970 --> 00:49:13,130 identifiable enigma that you pointed 1029 00:49:19,210 --> 00:49:15,980 certainly that there's a certain class 1030 00:49:22,980 --> 00:49:19,220 of mysterious things that are called 1031 00:49:26,410 --> 00:49:22,990 first flying saucers and then UFOs 1032 00:49:31,110 --> 00:49:26,420 whether there is anything physical 1033 00:49:34,660 --> 00:49:31,120 present I do not know I'm inclined to 1034 00:49:37,870 --> 00:49:34,670 doubt it but I've got to say that Jerry 1035 00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:37,880 Clark is far more qualified to speak to 1036 00:49:42,610 --> 00:49:40,670 that and then to speak to speak to that 1037 00:49:45,340 --> 00:49:42,620 aspect of it than I am 1038 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:45,350 but I would just have to say for myself 1039 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:48,050 I am disinclined to think there is 1040 00:49:54,190 --> 00:49:52,130 anything physical out of the ordinary 1041 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:54,200 okay would you look into things like 1042 00:49:58,300 --> 00:49:57,410 ultra terrestrials like what John keel 1043 00:50:01,170 --> 00:49:58,310 was talking 1044 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:01,180 is that referring to something that is 1045 00:50:05,980 --> 00:50:04,370 physical or not so physical what how 1046 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:05,990 does the how does kill use the term 1047 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:09,410 ultra terrestrials that their demons are 1048 00:50:17,620 --> 00:50:13,610 here to mess with our heads yeah and I 1049 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:17,630 believe in demons as a psychological 1050 00:50:25,180 --> 00:50:21,290 phenomenon I think when we talk about 1051 00:50:29,350 --> 00:50:25,190 our inner demons it's a very meaningful 1052 00:50:35,290 --> 00:50:29,360 way to speak of the things that torment 1053 00:50:38,190 --> 00:50:35,300 us and I have no doubt that people like 1054 00:50:42,750 --> 00:50:38,200 the one I keep coming back to Abraham 1055 00:50:46,090 --> 00:50:42,760 Cardozo will experience those demons 1056 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:46,100 objectified outside themselves but I 1057 00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:49,210 certainly don't think they exist the way 1058 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:52,910 rabbits and dogs and cats do and the way 1059 00:51:00,160 --> 00:50:57,290 the planet Venus or the moon or the or 1060 00:51:01,810 --> 00:51:00,170 the clouds or the meteors do of course 1061 00:51:03,790 --> 00:51:01,820 the question will be asked by our 1062 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:03,800 listeners and the one I'll ask him will 1063 00:51:07,450 --> 00:51:05,330 probably have to pursue that question in 1064 00:51:09,130 --> 00:51:07,460 the next segment and that is okay if 1065 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:09,140 they can be photographed if they can be 1066 00:51:14,350 --> 00:51:11,450 tracked on radar if they evidently leave 1067 00:51:17,110 --> 00:51:14,360 physical traces in the ground how could 1068 00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:17,120 we say UFOs are in physical or at least 1069 00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:19,160 some are in physical and David you'll 1070 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:20,420 hold that answer and we'll let you 1071 00:51:25,090 --> 00:51:22,850 respond as soon as we do the station 1072 00:51:27,310 --> 00:51:25,100 break we have David Halperin he has 1073 00:51:30,430 --> 00:51:27,320 studied the UFO enigma for many many 1074 00:51:32,110 --> 00:51:30,440 years from various points of view he's 1075 00:51:34,180 --> 00:51:32,120 also the author of this new novel called 1076 00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:34,190 Journal of a UFO investigator about the 1077 00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:37,280 teen UFO years and we'll revisit that a 1078 00:51:41,950 --> 00:51:39,440 little bit later in the show I'm Jean 1079 00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:41,960 Steinberg the co-host is Chris O'Brien 1080 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:49,720 [Music] 1081 00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,410 hi this is Ted Anderson if you'd like to 1082 00:51:56,809 --> 00:51:54,480 listen to GCN programs on the goal I 1083 00:51:58,970 --> 00:51:56,819 have great news gzn has created a Droid 1084 00:52:01,520 --> 00:51:58,980 and iPhone application and it's free 1085 00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:01,530 just as easy as going to GC and live.com 1086 00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:03,599 click on the banner and download before 1087 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:05,040 you know it you'll be listening to your 1088 00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:07,290 favorite hard-hitting GCN shows live 1089 00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:08,880 around a man right on your droid or 1090 00:52:13,579 --> 00:52:11,640 iPhone 24/7 and on the go so download 1091 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:13,589 the droid an iPhone app free by clicking 1092 00:52:18,050 --> 00:52:16,050 on the banner at GC and live.com thanks 1093 00:52:20,750 --> 00:52:18,060 again for listening to GC and live.com 1094 00:52:22,609 --> 00:52:20,760 again that's GC & live.com we the people 1095 00:52:24,530 --> 00:52:22,619 grow cotton wheat fabric engraving 1096 00:52:26,089 --> 00:52:24,540 embeds strips and fibers to protect from 1097 00:52:27,859 --> 00:52:26,099 counterfeit than carding to a private 1098 00:52:29,630 --> 00:52:27,869 bank having a led back at interest 1099 00:52:31,490 --> 00:52:29,640 forcing taxes to service debt this 1100 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:31,500 capitalism was Jefferson correct when 1101 00:52:34,579 --> 00:52:32,970 stating a central bank issuing the 1102 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:34,589 public currency is a greater menace to 1103 00:52:37,490 --> 00:52:35,730 the liberties of the people than a 1104 00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:37,500 standing army Ted Anderson I'm placing a 1105 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:38,640 free silver dollar in a book that 1106 00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:40,650 explains our monetary system call for 1107 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:43,920 your copy 800 686 to 237 it's time to 1108 00:52:50,060 --> 00:52:47,010 understand the system call 866 to 237 1109 00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:50,070 that's 800 686 to 237 1110 00:52:59,700 --> 00:52:56,910 welcome back to the podcast the gold 1111 00:53:04,470 --> 00:52:59,710 standard of paranormal radio and now 1112 00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:12,400 [Music] 1113 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:14,880 we returned Chris O'Brien's the co-host 1114 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:16,530 I'm gene Steinberg you're in the para 1115 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:19,050 cast David Halperin is our guest 1116 00:53:24,530 --> 00:53:22,290 so the question on the table is if UFOs 1117 00:53:27,380 --> 00:53:24,540 are not quite physical how do you 1118 00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:27,390 explain the physical evidence that's out 1119 00:53:31,550 --> 00:53:29,310 there can you give me some specific 1120 00:53:34,550 --> 00:53:31,560 examples of the physical evidence okay 1121 00:53:36,770 --> 00:53:34,560 let's look at radar visual sightings you 1122 00:53:39,819 --> 00:53:36,780 see something strange in the sky you 1123 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:39,829 track it on radar is that real or 1124 00:53:46,339 --> 00:53:43,410 Memorex or what I don't know now I am 1125 00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:46,349 going to admit here a great weakness of 1126 00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:48,960 my approach and that is do you remember 1127 00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:50,880 you remember lek from Evan from the old 1128 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:54,000 days of ufology okay Lex Mebane was one 1129 00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:55,770 of the executives of an organization 1130 00:54:01,490 --> 00:53:58,410 called CSI of New York this is before we 1131 00:54:03,530 --> 00:54:01,500 had the CSI show about crime-scene 1132 00:54:05,780 --> 00:54:03,540 investigators it was one of the more 1133 00:54:08,690 --> 00:54:05,790 scientific UFO investigative 1134 00:54:11,540 --> 00:54:08,700 organization x' they had a body of great 1135 00:54:13,849 --> 00:54:11,550 information this goes back to the 50s 1136 00:54:15,470 --> 00:54:13,859 and 60s the organization was around yeah 1137 00:54:17,569 --> 00:54:15,480 now I remember 1138 00:54:19,849 --> 00:54:17,579 when I was a kid a teen ufologist 1139 00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:19,859 reading an article with his in which he 1140 00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:22,880 wrote very trenchant he said of course 1141 00:54:27,020 --> 00:54:24,000 skeptics 1142 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:27,030 don't read sighting reports 9 out of 10 1143 00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:29,970 insist on arguing in generalizations and 1144 00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:32,040 couldn't tell a good sighting from a 1145 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:34,200 poor one if their lives depended on it 1146 00:54:39,770 --> 00:54:36,690 and I remember thinking you know this 1147 00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:39,780 guy is absolutely on target and this is 1148 00:54:45,230 --> 00:54:42,990 what we have to cope with skeptics who 1149 00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:45,240 are ignorant of the data and don't want 1150 00:54:51,230 --> 00:54:48,510 to be familiar with it now all right I'm 1151 00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:51,240 in the position of exactly those people 1152 00:54:56,540 --> 00:54:53,609 whom have been criticized and whom I 1153 00:55:00,770 --> 00:54:56,550 resented so badly I am persuaded on 1154 00:55:04,099 --> 00:55:00,780 let's say a priori grounds that the UFOs 1155 00:55:07,579 --> 00:55:04,109 are wildly unlikely that their 1156 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:07,589 extraterrestrial vehicles having come 1157 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:10,770 being at that belief holding that belief 1158 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:15,450 I do not spend time studying the reports 1159 00:55:22,210 --> 00:55:18,450 that might convince me otherwise but 1160 00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:22,220 rather dismiss them by saying there 1161 00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:25,280 must be some explanation I don't know 1162 00:55:31,450 --> 00:55:28,250 what it is in each case and perhaps in 1163 00:55:34,210 --> 00:55:31,460 many cases I would never no matter how I 1164 00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,220 studied it know what it is know what 1165 00:55:38,050 --> 00:55:37,040 that explanation is but there must be an 1166 00:55:40,750 --> 00:55:38,060 explanation 1167 00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:40,760 you remember Jean that case that landing 1168 00:55:45,849 --> 00:55:43,099 with with physical traces that you and I 1169 00:55:47,859 --> 00:55:45,859 cross towards about our listeners about 1170 00:55:50,530 --> 00:55:47,869 this because this is interesting of 1171 00:55:52,599 --> 00:55:50,540 course now I understand David and I were 1172 00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:52,609 very good friends as teenagers but we 1173 00:55:58,240 --> 00:55:55,130 had sort of a falling out publicly as a 1174 00:56:00,130 --> 00:55:58,250 matter of fact over a single case in New 1175 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:00,140 Jersey tell them about the case and 1176 00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:02,330 about what you discovered okay what the 1177 00:56:08,500 --> 00:56:04,250 case was it was at Glassboro New Jersey 1178 00:56:11,859 --> 00:56:08,510 in the fall of 65 Glassboro later became 1179 00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:11,869 famous I think it 68 when Lyndon Johnson 1180 00:56:17,859 --> 00:56:14,420 and I think Kosygin had a summit there 1181 00:56:21,460 --> 00:56:17,869 but in 55 it was simply a sleepy town in 1182 00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:21,470 South Jersey until a UFO landed there 1183 00:56:27,790 --> 00:56:25,520 and left I think a central hall three 1184 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:27,800 smaller holes that were pushed into the 1185 00:56:35,140 --> 00:56:32,450 ground not dug as was determined by some 1186 00:56:38,650 --> 00:56:35,150 investigators I'm not sure how by a 1187 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:38,660 tripod that had rested there a branch of 1188 00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:41,570 a tree had been broken by the UFO that 1189 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:44,060 landed and I remember gene you and I 1190 00:56:48,609 --> 00:56:46,490 debated that case in public and you had 1191 00:56:53,170 --> 00:56:48,619 the temerity to say that it was a hoax 1192 00:56:57,970 --> 00:56:53,180 and I defended strongly its authenticity 1193 00:57:01,200 --> 00:56:57,980 even though the young man who had dug 1194 00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:01,210 the holes set off the Cherry Bomb and 1195 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:05,630 told the boys who later made the report 1196 00:57:10,329 --> 00:57:07,730 that he had seen something land even 1197 00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:10,339 though he had confessed I remember that 1198 00:57:14,829 --> 00:57:13,040 yes I mean I would I was sure that his 1199 00:57:16,780 --> 00:57:14,839 confession was like well you know all 1200 00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:16,790 sorts of people confess to murders just 1201 00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:19,250 to get in the newspapers now in 1202 00:57:24,970 --> 00:57:21,710 retrospect I can see that with absolute 1203 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:24,980 nonsense so this is a public apology not 1204 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:27,050 exactly an apology an admission that I 1205 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:29,570 that I was wrong and you were right well 1206 00:57:33,250 --> 00:57:31,730 I like to be right sometimes but you 1207 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:33,260 know I respect what you say because I 1208 00:57:35,890 --> 00:57:34,970 appreciate your intellectual honesty 1209 00:57:37,029 --> 00:57:35,900 because 1210 00:57:40,539 --> 00:57:37,039 I think some of the problems we have in 1211 00:57:42,279 --> 00:57:40,549 the UFO field far too many people you 1212 00:57:44,170 --> 00:57:42,289 know what they're going to do they'll go 1213 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:44,180 there and they'll insist till their 1214 00:57:49,630 --> 00:57:46,490 dying day that an event is true even 1215 00:57:52,359 --> 00:57:49,640 though it's not because really how often 1216 00:57:54,220 --> 00:57:52,369 the UFOs land in a place that was an 1217 00:57:56,829 --> 00:57:54,230 easy bus ride from Levittown 1218 00:57:59,529 --> 00:57:56,839 Pennsylvania where I grew up it had to 1219 00:58:02,890 --> 00:57:59,539 be real okay now this is I think we can 1220 00:58:05,650 --> 00:58:02,900 go into my motives for believing that so 1221 00:58:07,390 --> 00:58:05,660 strongly in much in much more depth but 1222 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:07,400 I guess for the moment I'm using that to 1223 00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:09,770 illustrate that at least in some cases 1224 00:58:18,549 --> 00:58:14,480 of physical evidence it really is not so 1225 00:58:20,799 --> 00:58:18,559 now you you or Jerry or somebody who 1226 00:58:23,470 --> 00:58:20,809 knows the evidence much better than I do 1227 00:58:26,829 --> 00:58:23,480 can present me with other cases which I 1228 00:58:29,710 --> 00:58:26,839 cannot dismiss so easily so what am I 1229 00:58:33,700 --> 00:58:29,720 going to do do I have and perhaps this 1230 00:58:37,210 --> 00:58:33,710 is the basic epistemological question do 1231 00:58:39,339 --> 00:58:37,220 I have the right to say that given that 1232 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:39,349 the arguments against the physical 1233 00:58:47,140 --> 00:58:43,490 reality of UFOs seem so strong to me 1234 00:58:50,170 --> 00:58:47,150 given that do I have the right to say 1235 00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:50,180 dogmatically there must be a natural 1236 00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:53,200 explanation be it hoaxes 1237 00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:55,450 misinterpretations whatever author 1238 00:59:00,760 --> 00:58:58,400 conceivably some natural phenomenon we 1239 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:00,770 don't yet fully understand but there 1240 00:59:04,510 --> 00:59:03,410 must be some such explanation even if I 1241 00:59:07,059 --> 00:59:04,520 can't point to it 1242 00:59:09,789 --> 00:59:07,069 I can understand and respect those who 1243 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:09,799 say that this is closed-minded dogmatism 1244 00:59:14,470 --> 00:59:11,930 I would continue to maintain that it's 1245 00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:14,480 legitimate and that it's what I need to 1246 00:59:21,069 --> 00:59:18,710 do if I'm to reserve my powers and my 1247 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:21,079 time for the questions that I find 1248 00:59:25,089 --> 00:59:22,970 different you know one thing David that 1249 00:59:26,829 --> 00:59:25,099 you could say is you can say well okay 1250 00:59:29,079 --> 00:59:26,839 this is an unknown phenomenon we don't 1251 00:59:31,809 --> 00:59:29,089 know what causes it as possible that 1252 00:59:34,510 --> 00:59:31,819 phenomenon can cause physical effects 1253 00:59:37,269 --> 00:59:34,520 even if there's no et yeah and when you 1254 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:37,279 think about it to say that a CT is not 1255 00:59:40,839 --> 00:59:39,170 much different from that because I 1256 00:59:43,180 --> 00:59:40,849 remember when I was a kid people would 1257 00:59:46,390 --> 00:59:43,190 say to me hey if we had these visitors 1258 00:59:48,580 --> 00:59:46,400 from other planets would they just super 1259 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:48,590 zip around our skies wouldn't 1260 00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:51,530 they announce themselves somehow would 1261 00:59:56,590 --> 00:59:54,260 this go on year after year and I always 1262 00:59:59,050 --> 00:59:56,600 had the same counter-argument it's that 1263 01:00:01,150 --> 00:59:59,060 we don't know what their position is 1264 01:00:03,460 --> 01:00:01,160 therefore we can't put ourselves in 1265 01:00:06,610 --> 01:00:03,470 their position and ask what would they 1266 01:00:08,740 --> 01:00:06,620 be likely to do now that always seemed 1267 01:00:12,130 --> 01:00:08,750 to me a convincing counter-argument I 1268 01:00:15,220 --> 01:00:12,140 did not grasp but once you say that 1269 01:00:18,010 --> 01:00:15,230 calling UFOs extraterrestrial spaceships 1270 01:00:20,260 --> 01:00:18,020 has no explanatory power whatsoever 1271 01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:20,270 because nothing follows from it well 1272 01:00:23,980 --> 01:00:22,310 yeah this is um you know I'm of two 1273 01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:23,990 minds here I think we're dealing with a 1274 01:00:31,150 --> 01:00:28,240 multiple of multifarious phenomena and 1275 01:00:34,030 --> 01:00:31,160 you know there are cases very good cases 1276 01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:34,040 where physical evidence appears to have 1277 01:00:38,940 --> 01:00:36,400 been obtained I know Ted Phillips 1278 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:38,950 investigated a case in delphos Kansas 1279 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:41,930 they're left behind fluorescing material 1280 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:44,570 that fluoresced I think for about a half 1281 01:00:49,570 --> 01:00:46,490 to a half a day or 18 hours 1282 01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:49,580 after the object was there and we've had 1283 01:00:55,780 --> 01:00:53,510 vitrified soil we've raised Stanford at 1284 01:00:59,710 --> 01:00:55,790 the Socorro case came up with some 1285 01:01:02,740 --> 01:00:59,720 incredible evidence paper with with what 1286 01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:02,750 appear to be particle beam type burns in 1287 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:07,760 it smoking a smoking rabbit brush and 1288 01:01:13,210 --> 01:01:10,010 shamea was seen around the the landing 1289 01:01:15,220 --> 01:01:13,220 site by Lonnie some more samples of the 1290 01:01:18,610 --> 01:01:15,230 charred a plants where we're taken I 1291 01:01:21,570 --> 01:01:18,620 think we do have a a body of cases that 1292 01:01:25,180 --> 01:01:21,580 that do reflect some sort of physicality 1293 01:01:26,890 --> 01:01:25,190 but but again I'm disagreeing with you 1294 01:01:29,410 --> 01:01:26,900 had one hand but I'm also agreeing with 1295 01:01:33,220 --> 01:01:29,420 you on another hand I don't I don't see 1296 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:33,230 this mystery as being fully manifest as 1297 01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:36,530 a nuts-and-bolts phenomenon and that's 1298 01:01:41,230 --> 01:01:38,510 not saying that we don't have cases that 1299 01:01:43,210 --> 01:01:41,240 that that you know that we obviously 1300 01:01:46,210 --> 01:01:43,220 have cases that are I think very 1301 01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:46,220 physical in nature but that's why it 1302 01:01:51,310 --> 01:01:47,900 makes this whole thing so confusing and 1303 01:01:54,220 --> 01:01:51,320 so intriguing at least for people like 1304 01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:54,230 ourselves here it's it's always going to 1305 01:01:57,910 --> 01:01:55,760 keep you guessing as soon as you think 1306 01:02:01,080 --> 01:01:57,920 you have it pinned down it supplies you 1307 01:02:02,250 --> 01:02:01,090 with the data to refute any theories or 1308 01:02:05,010 --> 01:02:02,260 any 1309 01:02:06,780 --> 01:02:05,020 leanings that you might have so I do 1310 01:02:09,450 --> 01:02:06,790 think that there are physical cases but 1311 01:02:10,980 --> 01:02:09,460 I think not all of them are and we'll 1312 01:02:12,690 --> 01:02:10,990 get into more of those details in a 1313 01:02:15,210 --> 01:02:12,700 moment with Dave Halpern and his 1314 01:02:16,740 --> 01:02:15,220 response we're going to phrase as a 1315 01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:16,750 cliffhanger we're gonna make his 1316 01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:18,880 response a cliffhanger because that's 1317 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:21,250 the way radio goes you know and that way 1318 01:02:25,380 --> 01:02:23,170 you'll tune in after the announcements 1319 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:25,390 and after we take care of a few pieces 1320 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:26,770 of business to find out what he's 1321 01:02:30,810 --> 01:02:28,330 talking about what he has to say about 1322 01:02:32,310 --> 01:02:30,820 what Chris commented on with regard to 1323 01:02:34,980 --> 01:02:32,320 physical trace evidence 1324 01:02:36,690 --> 01:02:34,990 Dave Halpern is the author of a book 1325 01:02:39,420 --> 01:02:36,700 called Journal of a UFO investigator 1326 01:02:41,580 --> 01:02:39,430 coming out this month a novel I'm Jean 1327 01:02:50,730 --> 01:02:41,590 Steinberg Chris O'Brien's the co-host 1328 01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:50,740 you're in the burger ghost you expect 1329 01:02:54,390 --> 01:02:52,570 professional service from your doctor 1330 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:54,400 your accountant and even the girl who 1331 01:02:58,080 --> 01:02:56,530 takes your morning coffee order why not 1332 01:03:00,810 --> 01:02:58,090 from your domain registrar to 1333 01:03:03,420 --> 01:03:00,820 namecheap.com provides stellar service 1334 01:03:05,460 --> 01:03:03,430 with no sneaky upselling we offer more 1335 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:05,470 features and security options for your 1336 01:03:09,930 --> 01:03:07,450 website then there are ways to order a 1337 01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:09,940 latte and new domains come with a who is 1338 01:03:14,220 --> 01:03:11,920 guard to protect your personal info and 1339 01:03:17,370 --> 01:03:14,230 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past episodes we 1423 01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:18,569 have hundreds of shows for you to 1424 01:07:24,979 --> 01:07:21,450 download direct from the para cast com 1425 01:07:30,319 --> 01:07:24,989 that's the para cast calm or check us 1426 01:07:32,329 --> 01:07:30,329 out on iTunes we returned with David 1427 01:07:34,759 --> 01:07:32,339 Halperin author of Journal of a UFO 1428 01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:34,769 investigator a novel our co-host is 1429 01:07:39,620 --> 01:07:36,569 Chris O'Brien on gene Steinberg you're 1430 01:07:41,809 --> 01:07:39,630 in the para cast ok David I put it to 1431 01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:41,819 you the physical traces that Chris is 1432 01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:43,650 talking about ok 1433 01:07:49,219 --> 01:07:46,319 is it still some kind of mental 1434 01:07:50,509 --> 01:07:49,229 phenomenon can we create reality you 1435 01:07:53,329 --> 01:07:50,519 know with our lines or some external 1436 01:07:55,999 --> 01:07:53,339 force like that I don't think so at 1437 01:07:59,630 --> 01:07:56,009 least not in the way that we would have 1438 01:08:01,880 --> 01:07:59,640 to be to explain UFO traces now there is 1439 01:08:04,489 --> 01:08:01,890 an extraordinary book which I read about 1440 01:08:06,769 --> 01:08:04,499 25 years ago I don't know if either of 1441 01:08:11,420 --> 01:08:06,779 you are familiar with it by Morton 1442 01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:11,430 saxman called the story of Ruth about a 1443 01:08:18,169 --> 01:08:14,130 what was a psychic saxman wasn't I think 1444 01:08:20,169 --> 01:08:18,179 still is a psychiatrist and he dealt 1445 01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:20,179 with a woman patient who had been 1446 01:08:27,340 --> 01:08:23,369 sexually abused in her childhood who was 1447 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:27,350 totally functional in her adult life 1448 01:08:34,900 --> 01:08:31,130 just one very unusual property she was 1449 01:08:39,700 --> 01:08:34,910 able to hallucinate things including in 1450 01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:39,710 his office which he and she agreed were 1451 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:43,090 not physically present and yet what she 1452 01:08:49,210 --> 01:08:46,970 experienced as though they were at one 1453 01:08:50,650 --> 01:08:49,220 point I think she tried the experiment I 1454 01:08:53,370 --> 01:08:50,660 think at home I don't think it was in 1455 01:08:56,140 --> 01:08:53,380 his office I when her husband was away 1456 01:08:58,120 --> 01:08:56,150 hallucinating her husband and having 1457 01:09:04,840 --> 01:08:58,130 very good sex with the hallucinated 1458 01:09:08,620 --> 01:09:04,850 husband she should go workshops yeah and 1459 01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:08,630 at one point Chapman and this is the 1460 01:09:15,070 --> 01:09:10,400 thing I most remember of the books 1461 01:09:18,430 --> 01:09:15,080 Atzmon quotes a line from Hamlet where 1462 01:09:21,310 --> 01:09:18,440 Hamlet sees his father's ghost and he's 1463 01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:21,320 in his mother's presence and he says to 1464 01:09:26,470 --> 01:09:24,290 her do you see nothing and she says I 1465 01:09:31,020 --> 01:09:26,480 seen nothing yet 1466 01:09:35,470 --> 01:09:31,030 all there is I see and Chapman asks I 1467 01:09:39,430 --> 01:09:35,480 wonder how did she know that all there 1468 01:09:46,170 --> 01:09:39,440 is I see so I think this book puts into 1469 01:09:50,740 --> 01:09:46,180 question what our minds can construct of 1470 01:09:53,740 --> 01:09:50,750 reality and yet to go so far as to say 1471 01:09:57,370 --> 01:09:53,750 that our psychological constructions can 1472 01:09:58,150 --> 01:09:57,380 make holes in the ground that I would 1473 01:10:00,760 --> 01:09:58,160 not do 1474 01:10:04,150 --> 01:10:00,770 I think Young himself in his classic 1475 01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:04,160 book on flying saucers says that he 1476 01:10:10,300 --> 01:10:07,610 doesn't understand how archetypal 1477 01:10:11,830 --> 01:10:10,310 phenomena can appear on radar screen 1478 01:10:14,410 --> 01:10:11,840 well how about something 1479 01:10:17,290 --> 01:10:14,420 let's change change our focus here a 1480 01:10:20,050 --> 01:10:17,300 little bit onto another seemingly 1481 01:10:22,300 --> 01:10:20,060 miraculous type of manifestation of 1482 01:10:25,810 --> 01:10:22,310 phenomenon and that would be stigmata 1483 01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:25,820 all right like I go back to Padre Pio 1484 01:10:31,930 --> 01:10:30,080 and and some of this stigmata let this 1485 01:10:34,930 --> 01:10:31,940 stigmatised I'm not sure how you would 1486 01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:34,940 say plural but but we do have a pretty 1487 01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:38,450 good evidence that stigmata is a real is 1488 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:39,840 a real thing 1489 01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:44,050 padre pio course the famous breezed back 1490 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:48,610 in the 50s and 60s was examined by a by 1491 01:10:52,740 --> 01:10:50,890 scientists and he did indeed have 1492 01:10:54,810 --> 01:10:52,750 supposedly the wounds of Christ now 1493 01:10:57,270 --> 01:10:54,820 David would you think that this is a 1494 01:11:00,030 --> 01:10:57,280 spontaneous manifestation of faith 1495 01:11:02,190 --> 01:11:00,040 could this be such a psychological 1496 01:11:04,260 --> 01:11:02,200 fixation on piety and the rest of it 1497 01:11:06,900 --> 01:11:04,270 that that he could actually physically 1498 01:11:09,090 --> 01:11:06,910 manifest these wounds or do you think 1499 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:09,100 it's something that's miraculous or 1500 01:11:14,220 --> 01:11:12,010 something that cannot be explained with 1501 01:11:16,260 --> 01:11:14,230 modern psychology or modern science I 1502 01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:16,270 don't know that those are the only two 1503 01:11:22,170 --> 01:11:19,210 alternatives how about if we consider 1504 01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:22,180 the possibility it might be a perfectly 1505 01:11:30,900 --> 01:11:25,570 natural phenomenon that outside the 1506 01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:30,910 bounds of modern medical thought that 1507 01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:33,520 Maine may be within its bounds in the 1508 01:11:38,930 --> 01:11:37,210 22nd or 23rd century yeah well I mean 1509 01:11:42,570 --> 01:11:38,940 yeah there's always that possibility but 1510 01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:42,580 it seems it seems pretty pretty 1511 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:43,840 interesting that the wound should 1512 01:11:48,930 --> 01:11:45,730 correspond with the suppose of wounds of 1513 01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:48,940 Christ and the rest of it I I personally 1514 01:11:57,900 --> 01:11:51,010 feel that it it's probably some sort of 1515 01:12:02,850 --> 01:11:57,910 psychosomatic a fact of extreme devotion 1516 01:12:05,250 --> 01:12:02,860 and piety and and this this will to want 1517 01:12:07,980 --> 01:12:05,260 it so bad subconsciously that it 1518 01:12:11,070 --> 01:12:07,990 actually occurs I would agree I would 1519 01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:11,080 completely agree my only my only caveat 1520 01:12:18,060 --> 01:12:13,510 would be that I do not know that we yet 1521 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:18,070 understand the mechanism how about if we 1522 01:12:26,250 --> 01:12:22,530 compound that ability of one person to 1523 01:12:28,890 --> 01:12:26,260 very remarkably affect their own 1524 01:12:31,950 --> 01:12:28,900 physical body what's to say that the 1525 01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:31,960 collective human psyche couldn't 1526 01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:34,930 manifest a real phenomenon you know this 1527 01:12:38,730 --> 01:12:36,730 is this is something that I don't I 1528 01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:38,740 don't think enough people have done work 1529 01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:41,260 on it as it relates to the paranormal as 1530 01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:44,170 it relates to UFOs 1531 01:12:52,380 --> 01:12:48,210 we do have suspect that young troubled 1532 01:12:53,130 --> 01:12:52,390 adolescent girls tend to be the ones 1533 01:12:55,620 --> 01:12:53,140 that are at the 1534 01:12:58,350 --> 01:12:55,630 a poltergeist outbreak there's another 1535 01:13:01,080 --> 01:12:58,360 example of physical manifestation of 1536 01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:01,090 phenomenon that seems to be centered 1537 01:13:07,170 --> 01:13:04,960 around a triggering individual and you 1538 01:13:10,020 --> 01:13:07,180 know I think quite a bit of study has 1539 01:13:12,030 --> 01:13:10,030 been done over the years actually for 1540 01:13:15,450 --> 01:13:12,040 over a hundred years on the poltergeist 1541 01:13:17,810 --> 01:13:15,460 phenomena and there does seem to be what 1542 01:13:21,570 --> 01:13:17,820 appears to be a relationship between 1543 01:13:23,250 --> 01:13:21,580 between young adolescents and in the 1544 01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:23,260 manifestation of poltergeist type of 1545 01:13:27,630 --> 01:13:26,290 facts so I think that there's there's 1546 01:13:30,660 --> 01:13:27,640 wiggle room on both sides of this 1547 01:13:33,750 --> 01:13:30,670 particular argument well I mean Freud's 1548 01:13:36,300 --> 01:13:33,760 favorite quotation was there are more 1549 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:36,310 things in heaven and earth Horatio than 1550 01:13:47,090 --> 01:13:43,330 dreamt of in your philosophy do you know 1551 01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:47,100 the story about Freud and that quotation 1552 01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:50,290 it's potent Leon abridged version of 1553 01:13:54,810 --> 01:13:52,930 Jones's biography of Freud the Joe 1554 01:13:57,360 --> 01:13:54,820 Arness Jones one of Freud's early 1555 01:13:58,620 --> 01:13:57,370 disciples was sitting up late with him I 1556 01:14:00,510 --> 01:13:58,630 guess they were up two and three in the 1557 01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:00,520 morning and Freud was telling ghost 1558 01:14:06,750 --> 01:14:04,810 stories and Jones kept saying no no this 1559 01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:06,760 can't be you can't believe this it Boyd 1560 01:14:11,490 --> 01:14:09,040 just could say there are more things in 1561 01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:11,500 heaven and earth Horatio then dreamt of 1562 01:14:15,480 --> 01:14:14,080 in your philosophy and finally John said 1563 01:14:16,830 --> 01:14:15,490 look if you start believing in this 1564 01:14:20,970 --> 01:14:16,840 stuff you're gonna start believing in 1565 01:14:25,530 --> 01:14:20,980 angels Android says yes and even their 1566 01:14:28,290 --> 01:14:25,540 leaders have the good Lord I'm Joan said 1567 01:14:30,690 --> 01:14:28,300 afterwards I assumed he was being ironic 1568 01:14:35,460 --> 01:14:30,700 but there was a strange look in his eye 1569 01:14:38,340 --> 01:14:35,470 that gave me pause I think I will be 1570 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:38,350 like 3 o'clock in the morning Floyd well 1571 01:14:42,660 --> 01:14:40,810 you know what Allen Greenfield now at 3 1572 01:14:45,060 --> 01:14:42,670 or 4 o'clock in the morning strange 3 1573 01:14:47,850 --> 01:14:45,070 o'clock in the morning decided that UFOs 1574 01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:47,860 were really beings and craft from other 1575 01:14:53,370 --> 01:14:50,170 dimensions and we looked at this book 1576 01:14:56,250 --> 01:14:53,380 this classic fantasy fiction book called 1577 01:14:58,050 --> 01:14:56,260 the incomplete enchanter on the base of 1578 01:15:00,180 --> 01:14:58,060 that which I guess was two short novels 1579 01:15:01,890 --> 01:15:00,190 in one book as I recall I read this 1580 01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:01,900 thing you know twelve thousand years ago 1581 01:15:05,730 --> 01:15:04,210 and we came up with this theory and then 1582 01:15:07,740 --> 01:15:05,740 everybody was talking about UFOs from 1583 01:15:09,990 --> 01:15:07,750 other dimensions so maybe we caught a 1584 01:15:12,210 --> 01:15:10,000 wave but who knows there's another 1585 01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:12,220 interesting phenomenon in the UFO field 1586 01:15:16,980 --> 01:15:14,650 and it relates to something where you 1587 01:15:20,370 --> 01:15:16,990 had a connection between ancient 1588 01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:20,380 ascension traditions and UFO abductions 1589 01:15:24,300 --> 01:15:21,610 I'm gonna want to ask you about that 1590 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:24,310 when we return we have David Halpern 1591 01:15:29,490 --> 01:15:26,530 he's author of a book a novel called 1592 01:15:33,170 --> 01:15:29,500 Journal of a UFO investigator about the 1593 01:15:35,790 --> 01:15:33,180 team UFO as they say experienced 1594 01:15:38,850 --> 01:15:35,800 fictionalized the co-host is Chris 1595 01:15:39,580 --> 01:15:38,860 O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're in the 1596 01:15:46,740 --> 01:15:39,590 para cast 1597 01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:49,490 [Music] 1598 01:15:54,149 --> 01:15:51,820 graphic converter is the image 1599 01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:54,159 manipulation tool for the rest of us it 1600 01:15:59,339 --> 01:15:57,130 does not use any database you get full 1601 01:16:01,800 --> 01:15:59,349 control of all your files want to view 1602 01:16:04,290 --> 01:16:01,810 the images of a folder drag it 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01:20:14,150 --> 01:20:07,290 listening to the podcast the gold 1699 01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:14,160 standard of paranormal radio we have 1700 01:20:18,980 --> 01:20:16,050 David Halpern joining us I don't think 1701 01:20:21,410 --> 01:20:18,990 he's ever been on a paranormal radio 1702 01:20:23,750 --> 01:20:21,420 show before is that correct David that 1703 01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:23,760 is correct this is your debut after this 1704 01:20:28,730 --> 01:20:27,420 will be the last you ever do Chris 1705 01:20:30,980 --> 01:20:28,740 O'Brien's the co-host I'm gene 1706 01:20:33,220 --> 01:20:30,990 steinberger in the power cast so you're 1707 01:20:35,390 --> 01:20:33,230 telling me here you wrote this paper 1708 01:20:37,370 --> 01:20:35,400 comparing the ancient ascension 1709 01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:37,380 traditions to UFO abductions I bring it 1710 01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:39,690 up because there's a big controversy in 1711 01:20:43,790 --> 01:20:41,850 the UFO field now as there always is a 1712 01:20:45,980 --> 01:20:43,800 controversy this one about the 1713 01:20:49,250 --> 01:20:45,990 abductions and methodology of two 1714 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:49,260 well-known researchers dr. David Jacobs 1715 01:20:53,420 --> 01:20:50,970 from Temple University and of course 1716 01:20:56,750 --> 01:20:53,430 Budd Hopkins but let's not talk about 1717 01:21:00,080 --> 01:20:56,760 that so much as this paper how do you 1718 01:21:02,270 --> 01:21:00,090 staged this comparison David yeah well I 1719 01:21:04,900 --> 01:21:02,280 think I'm gonna have to introduce two 1720 01:21:08,150 --> 01:21:04,910 Hebrew words here and one of them is 1721 01:21:12,740 --> 01:21:08,160 Merkava that you can spell that in 1722 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:12,750 English letters at em er ka vah and the 1723 01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:19,050 other is a lot h EK h al OT and the KH 1724 01:21:25,460 --> 01:21:21,570 is pronounced as if you're clearing your 1725 01:21:27,830 --> 01:21:25,470 throat now the neck of a merkava Ebru 1726 01:21:30,710 --> 01:21:27,840 for chariot and it's usually referred to 1727 01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:30,720 used to refer to the thing that Ezekiel 1728 01:21:37,460 --> 01:21:33,210 saw in that vision we're talking about 1729 01:21:39,140 --> 01:21:37,470 now in ancient times around the be in 1730 01:21:43,250 --> 01:21:39,150 the first two or perhaps three centuries 1731 01:21:45,980 --> 01:21:43,260 of the Christian era the rabbis who put 1732 01:21:49,460 --> 01:21:45,990 Judaism into the form that we know it 1733 01:21:52,940 --> 01:21:49,470 today spoke of the Merkava as being a 1734 01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:52,950 topic that people must not study you 1735 01:21:58,910 --> 01:21:56,040 can't study it at all unless you're wise 1736 01:22:01,010 --> 01:21:58,920 and can understand on your own it's 1737 01:22:03,950 --> 01:22:01,020 really pretty dangerous to get involved 1738 01:22:07,220 --> 01:22:03,960 in it one boy studied part of the 1739 01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:07,230 details of Ezekiel's chariot and fire 1740 01:22:14,100 --> 01:22:11,370 came forth from that part of the chariot 1741 01:22:18,750 --> 01:22:14,110 and devoured okay 1742 01:22:24,060 --> 01:22:18,760 at some point there seem to have been 1743 01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:24,070 people who carried that fascination with 1744 01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:30,090 Ezekiel chariot to actually attempt a 1745 01:22:37,500 --> 01:22:34,810 shamanic type journey to visit it and by 1746 01:22:42,150 --> 01:22:37,510 shamanic type I mean that your body 1747 01:22:45,660 --> 01:22:42,160 stays still your soul wanders and you go 1748 01:22:47,940 --> 01:22:45,670 to see for yourself the things that 1749 01:22:51,690 --> 01:22:47,950 Ezekiel saw or as I would say you 1750 01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:51,700 hallucinate seeing for yourself the 1751 01:22:57,060 --> 01:22:54,250 things that Ezekiel saw and there are a 1752 01:22:59,490 --> 01:22:57,070 number of very strange texts coming down 1753 01:23:02,400 --> 01:22:59,500 to us there in Ebro they seem to have 1754 01:23:04,770 --> 01:23:02,410 been written sometime around the 5th 6th 1755 01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:04,780 centuries of the Christian era called 1756 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:08,290 that call or text that give descriptions 1757 01:23:14,550 --> 01:23:11,770 of the worlds of the Merkava the worlds 1758 01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:14,560 of the chariot all the angels the fiery 1759 01:23:20,100 --> 01:23:16,810 rivers all sorts of weird stuff 1760 01:23:23,550 --> 01:23:20,110 associated with it and the hymns and the 1761 01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:23,560 songs that you speak when you want to 1762 01:23:30,390 --> 01:23:26,890 journey to the chariot which very oddly 1763 01:23:32,510 --> 01:23:30,400 is called going down to the chariot 1764 01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:32,520 you'd think you'd be going the other way 1765 01:23:38,460 --> 01:23:35,650 but they speak of going down to when you 1766 01:23:42,150 --> 01:23:38,470 go to the chariot going back when you're 1767 01:23:47,430 --> 01:23:42,160 coming back now it seemed to me that 1768 01:23:52,370 --> 01:23:47,440 these journeys to the chariot are very 1769 01:23:57,390 --> 01:23:52,380 much like what modern abductees describe 1770 01:24:02,400 --> 01:23:57,400 when they're taken to the UFO as with 1771 01:24:05,790 --> 01:24:02,410 the UFO abductions they they're they 1772 01:24:09,210 --> 01:24:05,800 don't fly in the chariot they don't ride 1773 01:24:13,890 --> 01:24:09,220 in the chariot the chariot is the goal 1774 01:24:18,420 --> 01:24:13,900 of the journey as in modern UFO 1775 01:24:23,100 --> 01:24:18,430 abductions the feature of eyes that 1776 01:24:24,890 --> 01:24:23,110 Annie y es huge and terrifying play an 1777 01:24:29,110 --> 01:24:24,900 important role 1778 01:24:33,709 --> 01:24:29,120 and as in the UFO abductions the 1779 01:24:36,050 --> 01:24:33,719 situation of the trance is important we 1780 01:24:38,660 --> 01:24:36,060 have I think there's only one really 1781 01:24:40,100 --> 01:24:38,670 clear example of this from the ancient 1782 01:24:44,300 --> 01:24:40,110 Hebrew hello.tex 1783 01:24:46,970 --> 01:24:44,310 but it describes how the participants 1784 01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:46,980 are in a circle and one of them is going 1785 01:24:52,970 --> 01:24:50,130 on this trance journey to the chariot 1786 01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:52,980 and he's reporting on what he sees which 1787 01:25:00,169 --> 01:24:55,730 is very much like what you see in a 1788 01:25:04,010 --> 01:25:00,179 transcript of these hypnotic sessions in 1789 01:25:07,010 --> 01:25:04,020 which the abductee describes his or her 1790 01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:07,020 experience and relives it in this 1791 01:25:14,260 --> 01:25:10,890 situation and I asked how do you how are 1792 01:25:16,970 --> 01:25:14,270 we going to explain these resemblances 1793 01:25:21,860 --> 01:25:16,980 now I don't know whether it was the 1794 01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:21,870 question that shocked the person who 1795 01:25:26,750 --> 01:25:24,449 read my paper whom I'll talk about in a 1796 01:25:29,390 --> 01:25:26,760 moment or whether it was the answer I 1797 01:25:32,630 --> 01:25:29,400 gave and I gave it as a provisional 1798 01:25:35,060 --> 01:25:32,640 answer a working hypothesis that we're 1799 01:25:39,410 --> 01:25:35,070 dealing with screen memories of actual 1800 01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:39,420 experiences of sexual abuse I don't know 1801 01:25:43,310 --> 01:25:41,040 whether it was the question I don't know 1802 01:25:46,220 --> 01:25:43,320 whether it was the answer but when I 1803 01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:46,230 sent the paper out to a very 1804 01:25:51,490 --> 01:25:48,570 distinguished Journal of Religious 1805 01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:51,500 Studies it was sent to one referee 1806 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:53,610 contrary to the almost universal 1807 01:25:58,459 --> 01:25:56,010 principle as the minute to to two 1808 01:26:01,430 --> 01:25:58,469 referees and the referee right back 1809 01:26:04,790 --> 01:26:01,440 without any explanation that if I meant 1810 01:26:07,450 --> 01:26:04,800 this paper seriously I should be subject 1811 01:26:09,410 --> 01:26:07,460 to prosecution for criminal malpractice 1812 01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:09,420 you're kidding me 1813 01:26:15,260 --> 01:26:13,050 not a bit not a bit 1814 01:26:16,669 --> 01:26:15,270 oh my goodness so much for the openness 1815 01:26:19,130 --> 01:26:16,679 of academia huh 1816 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:19,140 okay this is very interesting to me okay 1817 01:26:25,550 --> 01:26:21,690 so you raise the specter of some kind of 1818 01:26:27,740 --> 01:26:25,560 sexual abuse now that means again that 1819 01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:27,750 we should have psychiatrists examining 1820 01:26:32,060 --> 01:26:29,850 these abductees about their early 1821 01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:32,070 history to see where this abuse may have 1822 01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:34,650 occurred now is there any basic 1823 01:26:40,490 --> 01:26:37,650 empirical evidence that this is the case 1824 01:26:44,300 --> 01:26:40,500 in cdb Brian's close encounters with the 1825 01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:44,310 Fourth Kind brought Hopkins this I find 1826 01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:47,370 just an incredible resource there are 1827 01:26:54,620 --> 01:26:50,010 extended transcripts of blood Hopkins as 1828 01:26:57,410 --> 01:26:54,630 interviews with our two women who speak 1829 01:26:59,660 --> 01:26:57,420 of abduction and one of them has a 1830 01:27:02,930 --> 01:26:59,670 fairly explicit memories of having been 1831 01:27:05,810 --> 01:27:02,940 molested by her father and Hopkins tries 1832 01:27:09,050 --> 01:27:05,820 not very successfully to convince her 1833 01:27:11,870 --> 01:27:09,060 that her that the molestation was 1834 01:27:14,330 --> 01:27:11,880 actually carried out by UFO aliens while 1835 01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:14,340 her father watched helplessly okay so 1836 01:27:19,220 --> 01:27:16,410 let's just really summarize this very 1837 01:27:22,970 --> 01:27:19,230 quickly here as we go on okay so when 1838 01:27:26,180 --> 01:27:22,980 someone says Oh et took me aboard their 1839 01:27:28,430 --> 01:27:26,190 spaceship and they took sexual samples 1840 01:27:31,810 --> 01:27:28,440 or I had intercourse with an alien this 1841 01:27:34,460 --> 01:27:31,820 is a reflection in your mind of 1842 01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:34,470 reinterpreting this horrible sexual 1843 01:27:39,440 --> 01:27:36,570 abuse at some point in your life I 1844 01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:39,450 offered that as a working hypothesis and 1845 01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:42,330 I want to stress that because I thought 1846 01:27:46,910 --> 01:27:44,250 I was able to give you to answer your 1847 01:27:49,940 --> 01:27:46,920 challenge in terms of giving empirical 1848 01:27:53,210 --> 01:27:49,950 evidence I cannot do it across the board 1849 01:27:56,750 --> 01:27:53,220 and in fact you you mentioned two of the 1850 01:27:59,960 --> 01:27:56,760 of the most distinguished hypnotist to 1851 01:28:01,520 --> 01:27:59,970 work with UFO abductions there is a 1852 01:28:03,860 --> 01:28:01,530 third of course that we need to mention 1853 01:28:06,410 --> 01:28:03,870 who was in fact he's now he's now 1854 01:28:08,300 --> 01:28:06,420 deceased through a tragic accident this 1855 01:28:11,750 --> 01:28:08,310 is John Mack who was professor of 1856 01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:11,760 psychiatry at Harvard and Mack does it 1857 01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:14,010 back does raise the possibility that 1858 01:28:18,980 --> 01:28:15,840 we're dealing with screen memories of 1859 01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:18,990 sexual abuse he doesn't believe it and I 1860 01:28:24,650 --> 01:28:21,330 would take given his expertise I would 1861 01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:24,660 take that his doubt very seriously but 1862 01:28:30,710 --> 01:28:28,050 at the same time I I see many cases 1863 01:28:33,470 --> 01:28:30,720 where there there there are just 1864 01:28:37,340 --> 01:28:33,480 intriguing details in the abduction 1865 01:28:39,740 --> 01:28:37,350 stories that he presents that one would 1866 01:28:43,790 --> 01:28:39,750 expect a psychiatrist to follow up on 1867 01:28:46,370 --> 01:28:43,800 and he does not isn't that unfortunate 1868 01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:46,380 too I mean whether you agree with the 1869 01:28:51,140 --> 01:28:48,450 methods of David Jacobs and Budd Hopkins 1870 01:28:53,419 --> 01:28:51,150 I mean I get the sense there since 1871 01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:53,429 what they're doing but the problem being 1872 01:28:57,490 --> 01:28:55,050 here in the criticism might make so 1873 01:29:00,410 --> 01:28:57,500 often of them is that we need 1874 01:29:04,250 --> 01:29:00,420 professional therapists to look into 1875 01:29:06,050 --> 01:29:04,260 these cases if it's not ET abducting us 1876 01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:06,060 if there's something else going on in 1877 01:29:10,070 --> 01:29:08,250 the life histories of these people you 1878 01:29:12,740 --> 01:29:10,080 know they're trouble people they need 1879 01:29:15,649 --> 01:29:12,750 some sort of help and we need to provide 1880 01:29:16,729 --> 01:29:15,659 it and evidently they're not getting the 1881 01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:16,739 kind of help they need 1882 01:29:22,130 --> 01:29:19,770 we're helping explain a lot of things 1883 01:29:25,100 --> 01:29:22,140 here with David Halpern the book is 1884 01:29:26,870 --> 01:29:25,110 called Journal of a UFO investigator it 1885 01:29:29,770 --> 01:29:26,880 is a novel ladies and gentlemen which 1886 01:29:32,180 --> 01:29:29,780 means you know maybe it's based on fact 1887 01:29:34,820 --> 01:29:32,190 ripped from the headlines or their life 1888 01:29:36,979 --> 01:29:34,830 experiences but still fiction Chris 1889 01:29:40,130 --> 01:29:36,989 O'Brien's the co-host I'm Jean Steinberg 1890 01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:40,140 you're in the Barry cast 1891 01:29:52,910 --> 01:29:49,510 [Music] 1892 01:29:55,610 --> 01:29:52,920 Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned 1893 01:29:57,880 --> 01:29:55,620 out from the Gulf War lives tortured by 1894 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important 1991 01:34:01,950 --> 01:33:55,099 sir 1992 01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:04,990 you're in the pair guest you never know 1993 01:34:15,870 --> 01:34:13,770 we returned with david Halperin and 1994 01:34:17,310 --> 01:34:15,880 we're talking about UFO abductions 1995 01:34:20,190 --> 01:34:17,320 you're in the power cast with gene 1996 01:34:21,810 --> 01:34:20,200 Steinberg and Chris O'Brien so okay I 1997 01:34:24,450 --> 01:34:21,820 guess the point I raised here that you 1998 01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:24,460 were about to answer David is that we 1999 01:34:28,710 --> 01:34:26,170 should be getting professionals in there 2000 01:34:31,020 --> 01:34:28,720 these people have problems even if it's 2001 01:34:33,270 --> 01:34:31,030 et if it's not et if it's some 2002 01:34:35,490 --> 01:34:33,280 psychological disturbance if it is 2003 01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:35,500 sexual abuse it's real serious we got a 2004 01:34:40,890 --> 01:34:37,810 deal with it yeah I mean I don't know 2005 01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:40,900 for all I know it does help them to 2006 01:34:45,450 --> 01:34:42,970 believe that these are UFO abductions 2007 01:34:48,090 --> 01:34:45,460 had to be taken seriously by people like 2008 01:34:49,740 --> 01:34:48,100 Hopkins or David Jacobs it was pretty 2009 01:34:51,270 --> 01:34:49,750 distinguished scholar in his own right I 2010 01:34:54,090 --> 01:34:51,280 think he's professor of history at 2011 01:34:56,790 --> 01:34:54,100 Temple University and and the late John 2012 01:34:58,640 --> 01:34:56,800 Mack so I don't know that any harm is 2013 01:35:01,230 --> 01:34:58,650 being done has been done to these people 2014 01:35:03,300 --> 01:35:01,240 by the people by the people who've seen 2015 01:35:05,310 --> 01:35:03,310 them as being abducted by aliens 2016 01:35:07,580 --> 01:35:05,320 at the same time it's possible to 2017 01:35:11,340 --> 01:35:07,590 question whether there's another 2018 01:35:14,520 --> 01:35:11,350 interpretation of the data and to me the 2019 01:35:18,270 --> 01:35:14,530 prot one of the primary data is the 2020 01:35:20,310 --> 01:35:18,280 intense emotional reality that these 2021 01:35:22,440 --> 01:35:20,320 experiences seem to have for the people 2022 01:35:24,510 --> 01:35:22,450 which goes back to the beginning of the 2023 01:35:27,860 --> 01:35:24,520 abduction to the tradition the Betty and 2024 01:35:30,750 --> 01:35:27,870 Barney here and to whatever what 2025 01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:30,760 everybody seems to concede that Barney 2026 01:35:34,860 --> 01:35:32,650 Hill when he started recovering the 2027 01:35:36,990 --> 01:35:34,870 memories of his abduction was in a state 2028 01:35:39,660 --> 01:35:37,000 of utter terror the psychiatrist who had 2029 01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:39,670 not one bit of belief and the reality of 2030 01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:41,770 the abduction the psychiatrist said he 2031 01:35:45,870 --> 01:35:43,690 was afraid that Barney who was going to 2032 01:35:48,810 --> 01:35:45,880 throw himself out the office window he 2033 01:35:54,150 --> 01:35:48,820 was so scared so we've got to find some 2034 01:36:00,570 --> 01:35:54,160 way to account for the the intense the 2035 01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:00,580 reality of the emotional reaction okay 2036 01:36:05,310 --> 01:36:02,410 so you're suggesting that maybe there's 2037 01:36:07,770 --> 01:36:05,320 a possibility that both Barney and Betty 2038 01:36:11,340 --> 01:36:07,780 Hill were subject to some kind of sexual 2039 01:36:13,290 --> 01:36:11,350 abuse both of them possibly or possibly 2040 01:36:15,690 --> 01:36:13,300 Barney because the and I'm here I'm 2041 01:36:18,330 --> 01:36:15,700 drawing on Phillip cloth I do I know as 2042 01:36:21,530 --> 01:36:18,340 a the late Phillip cloth cloth was a 2043 01:36:25,190 --> 01:36:21,540 very convinced UFO skeptic 2044 01:36:27,260 --> 01:36:25,200 and of course cloth stresses that when 2045 01:36:29,660 --> 01:36:27,270 he listens to the tapes of Betty Hill 2046 01:36:33,530 --> 01:36:29,670 it sounds like she's just going to the 2047 01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:33,540 store but he acknowledges that Barney 2048 01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:37,530 Hill had gone through some absolutely 2049 01:36:42,260 --> 01:36:41,370 wrenching experience what it was I do 2050 01:36:45,470 --> 01:36:42,270 not know 2051 01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:45,480 now with Betty and as well given as my 2052 01:36:51,770 --> 01:36:47,970 working hypothesis that it's some sort 2053 01:36:55,460 --> 01:36:51,780 of sexual trauma but with Betty and 2054 01:36:58,100 --> 01:36:55,470 Barney Hill who are the beginning of the 2055 01:37:01,970 --> 01:36:58,110 UFO abduction tradition we've got 2056 01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:01,980 another issue that comes in and that I 2057 01:37:08,480 --> 01:37:04,890 think complements what I owe the idea of 2058 01:37:12,650 --> 01:37:08,490 sexual trauma and that is that Barney 2059 01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:12,660 was black Betty was white and if I ask 2060 01:37:19,970 --> 01:37:16,170 how did Barney's ancestors come to this 2061 01:37:22,970 --> 01:37:19,980 country my guess would be that they were 2062 01:37:26,810 --> 01:37:22,980 abducted in the middle of the night and 2063 01:37:29,150 --> 01:37:26,820 taken to a waiting ship that's a very 2064 01:37:33,790 --> 01:37:29,160 interesting insight so you're saying 2065 01:37:37,010 --> 01:37:33,800 there could be some sort of generational 2066 01:37:39,530 --> 01:37:37,020 process going on where he's got some 2067 01:37:42,650 --> 01:37:39,540 sort of genetic memory even of of a 2068 01:37:45,110 --> 01:37:42,660 traumatic event that then is manifested 2069 01:37:47,870 --> 01:37:45,120 in in this particular on this particular 2070 01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:47,880 roadside in New Hampshire it sounds 2071 01:37:50,630 --> 01:37:49,530 sounds interesting in theory I'm not 2072 01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:50,640 sure if it's workable 2073 01:37:55,070 --> 01:37:52,890 you'd have to establish a link between 2074 01:37:57,050 --> 01:37:55,080 you know his great-great-great 2075 01:38:02,000 --> 01:37:57,060 grandparents or however many generations 2076 01:38:04,430 --> 01:38:02,010 back it would be and his actual you know 2077 01:38:06,440 --> 01:38:04,440 his actual experience I think the fact 2078 01:38:08,270 --> 01:38:06,450 that the two of them in the early 2079 01:38:11,180 --> 01:38:08,280 sixties being together as an interracial 2080 01:38:14,060 --> 01:38:11,190 couple I've always felt that at me 2081 01:38:19,450 --> 01:38:14,070 that's a point that needs to be looked 2082 01:38:22,330 --> 01:38:19,460 at I think but in the overall working 2083 01:38:24,890 --> 01:38:22,340 hypothesis that you have here about 2084 01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:24,900 sexual trauma repressed sexual trauma 2085 01:38:32,240 --> 01:38:28,080 and the and the manifestation of screen 2086 01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:32,250 imaging to to sort of give us this this 2087 01:38:36,540 --> 01:38:34,090 abduction scenario 2088 01:38:39,510 --> 01:38:36,550 I'm not sure it might may work at least 2089 01:38:41,399 --> 01:38:39,520 in my mind it may work for you know a 2090 01:38:43,859 --> 01:38:41,409 sizable percentage of cases but it's not 2091 01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:43,869 going to explain all of them by any 2092 01:38:50,970 --> 01:38:47,530 stretch I do sense a very deeply 2093 01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:50,980 psychological liminal element that's 2094 01:38:57,709 --> 01:38:53,650 involved in the abduction phenomenon but 2095 01:39:01,080 --> 01:38:57,719 I don't think that repressed you know 2096 01:39:02,879 --> 01:39:01,090 sexual angst is is gonna explain all 2097 01:39:05,189 --> 01:39:02,889 your cases there's just too many good 2098 01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:05,199 quality cases out there with too much 2099 01:39:10,470 --> 01:39:08,170 documentation about a person's no 2100 01:39:13,859 --> 01:39:10,480 personal history for that to be an 2101 01:39:17,879 --> 01:39:13,869 overarching explanation what what other 2102 01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:17,889 types of psychological scenarios could 2103 01:39:22,350 --> 01:39:19,810 we look at to possibly explain maybe 2104 01:39:24,660 --> 01:39:22,360 some of these other cases I don't know 2105 01:39:28,140 --> 01:39:24,670 but I think you would agree would you 2106 01:39:30,930 --> 01:39:28,150 not that the sexual element in the 2107 01:39:34,979 --> 01:39:30,940 abduction stories tend to be extremely 2108 01:39:37,220 --> 01:39:34,989 strong yes I it is it's it's a it's a 2109 01:39:41,700 --> 01:39:37,230 theme that tends to run through a 2110 01:39:44,970 --> 01:39:41,710 majority of cases not all but you do 2111 01:39:48,419 --> 01:39:44,980 have that what appears on the surface to 2112 01:39:51,870 --> 01:39:48,429 be a fascination with the human sexual 2113 01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:51,880 organs which I find kind of strange you 2114 01:39:56,370 --> 01:39:54,250 know I Terence Mckenna came up with a 2115 01:39:58,080 --> 01:39:56,380 with a pretty interesting comment he 2116 01:40:01,589 --> 01:39:58,090 said he had a hard time believing that 2117 01:40:05,609 --> 01:40:01,599 there were pro bono proctologists coming 2118 01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:05,619 to make unannounced house calls from 2119 01:40:10,140 --> 01:40:08,770 another planet and and that that's 2120 01:40:13,470 --> 01:40:10,150 always been something that's kind of 2121 01:40:15,149 --> 01:40:13,480 annoyed me about the whole mystery is 2122 01:40:18,330 --> 01:40:15,159 that there does seem to be this 2123 01:40:21,629 --> 01:40:18,340 preoccupation with human sexuality and 2124 01:40:23,910 --> 01:40:21,639 in these medieval quality experiments 2125 01:40:25,830 --> 01:40:23,920 that go on that don't even reflect the 2126 01:40:27,899 --> 01:40:25,840 level of technology that that you know 2127 01:40:30,359 --> 01:40:27,909 we have now today in the modern world 2128 01:40:33,060 --> 01:40:30,369 and if they're so far advanced of us why 2129 01:40:35,250 --> 01:40:33,070 are they stooping to levels of medical 2130 01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:35,260 procedures that that aren't even up to 2131 01:40:39,870 --> 01:40:38,320 to our standards so there is definitely 2132 01:40:43,260 --> 01:40:39,880 I think I agree with you there is 2133 01:40:45,419 --> 01:40:43,270 definitely some psychological aspect to 2134 01:40:46,140 --> 01:40:45,429 many of these cases and it does seem to 2135 01:40:49,050 --> 01:40:46,150 center around 2136 01:40:51,830 --> 01:40:49,060 some sort of sexual trauma I I do agree 2137 01:40:53,850 --> 01:40:51,840 but again it's it's not a blanket 2138 01:40:56,340 --> 01:40:53,860 explanation that it's not a 2139 01:40:58,590 --> 01:40:56,350 one-size-fits-all explanation no I would 2140 01:41:01,110 --> 01:40:58,600 agree I would agree that was why I was 2141 01:41:03,660 --> 01:41:01,120 so tentative in my putting it forth I 2142 01:41:07,170 --> 01:41:03,670 think was I felt like I was shining a 2143 01:41:10,740 --> 01:41:07,180 flashlight into the darkness and I don't 2144 01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:10,750 I don't claim that I illuminated every 2145 01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:12,850 corner of it but of course I wanted to 2146 01:41:17,910 --> 01:41:14,650 go back to it because this reminds me of 2147 01:41:20,610 --> 01:41:17,920 your stigmata you remember the story of 2148 01:41:22,710 --> 01:41:20,620 Barney Hill that one of the symptoms I 2149 01:41:24,690 --> 01:41:22,720 mean among the symptoms that drove him 2150 01:41:26,850 --> 01:41:24,700 and Betty to seek psychiatric help 2151 01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:26,860 where there was some really serious ones 2152 01:41:32,700 --> 01:41:30,370 like high blood pressure ulcers but 2153 01:41:35,070 --> 01:41:32,710 there was also one minor but distinctly 2154 01:41:38,970 --> 01:41:35,080 weird symptom which was an almost 2155 01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:38,980 perfectly circle perfect circle of warts 2156 01:41:46,470 --> 01:41:43,210 that appeared around his groin which in 2157 01:41:49,140 --> 01:41:46,480 his recollection in in the memories that 2158 01:41:51,780 --> 01:41:49,150 came up were associated with some sort 2159 01:41:52,650 --> 01:41:51,790 of a suction cup that was put over his 2160 01:41:56,100 --> 01:41:52,660 genitalia 2161 01:41:58,380 --> 01:41:56,110 oh yeah that's a detail I kind of forgot 2162 01:42:01,170 --> 01:41:58,390 but now that you mention it rings a bell 2163 01:42:04,710 --> 01:42:01,180 Wow you know you could come up with 2164 01:42:10,580 --> 01:42:04,720 other explanations for it genital warts 2165 01:42:14,310 --> 01:42:10,590 in a circular fashion I won't go there 2166 01:42:17,490 --> 01:42:14,320 but yeah that is a detail that you don't 2167 01:42:21,060 --> 01:42:17,500 hear very often when people bring up the 2168 01:42:24,330 --> 01:42:21,070 good the hill case I have heard I think 2169 01:42:28,370 --> 01:42:24,340 a tape of his more portions of the tape 2170 01:42:30,660 --> 01:42:28,380 of his I think it wasn't he hypnotically 2171 01:42:33,150 --> 01:42:30,670 regressed and then there's a tape out 2172 01:42:35,070 --> 01:42:33,160 there where he's screaming and I mean it 2173 01:42:38,910 --> 01:42:35,080 does it definitely sounds like he's 2174 01:42:42,810 --> 01:42:38,920 reliving something very horrific but a 2175 01:42:45,300 --> 01:42:42,820 suction cup around the genitalia I don't 2176 01:42:46,500 --> 01:42:45,310 know my mind just I I think we shouldn't 2177 01:42:48,450 --> 01:42:46,510 go there I think we shouldn't go there 2178 01:42:49,770 --> 01:42:48,460 but you know here's an important point 2179 01:42:52,140 --> 01:42:49,780 of view here okay we have a lot of 2180 01:42:53,370 --> 01:42:52,150 people who have made the claim where 2181 01:42:55,620 --> 01:42:53,380 they have the feeling that they've been 2182 01:42:58,170 --> 01:42:55,630 abducted and of course we have as I said 2183 01:42:59,110 --> 01:42:58,180 these investigators some of whom suggest 2184 01:43:03,010 --> 01:42:59,120 that 2185 01:43:05,470 --> 01:43:03,020 they are being roomed for hybrid aliens 2186 01:43:07,660 --> 01:43:05,480 you know aliens in earth people 2187 01:43:09,190 --> 01:43:07,670 regardless how do we get to the bottom 2188 01:43:11,290 --> 01:43:09,200 of it you know we have a lot of trouble 2189 01:43:14,260 --> 01:43:11,300 people out there who need some kind of 2190 01:43:17,530 --> 01:43:14,270 treatment who needs some kind of as they 2191 01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:17,540 say I won't want to use that term need 2192 01:43:22,630 --> 01:43:19,970 some kind of understanding of what 2193 01:43:24,940 --> 01:43:22,640 happened to them how do we get there I'm 2194 01:43:27,430 --> 01:43:24,950 wondering it's the question of how we 2195 01:43:29,110 --> 01:43:27,440 are the whether the therapeutic question 2196 01:43:31,540 --> 01:43:29,120 is quite the same thing as the 2197 01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:31,550 scientific of historical question I mean 2198 01:43:37,330 --> 01:43:34,370 that there is what I call the scientific 2199 01:43:40,150 --> 01:43:37,340 flash historical question of just what 2200 01:43:42,070 --> 01:43:40,160 did create these memories and I'm going 2201 01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:42,080 to assume for a moment was not leading 2202 01:43:47,650 --> 01:43:45,410 questions by the hypnotist which is a 2203 01:43:49,900 --> 01:43:47,660 hypothesis that also needs to be taken 2204 01:43:51,570 --> 01:43:49,910 seriously I'll tell you interrupt you 2205 01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:51,580 David I want to get into that and 2206 01:43:57,460 --> 01:43:54,650 explore the possibilities in our next 2207 01:44:00,340 --> 01:43:57,470 segment we want you to participate in 2208 01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:00,350 our para cast forums yes we do here's 2209 01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:02,930 how you do it go to forum dr. Peric 2210 01:44:08,770 --> 01:44:06,770 ascom that is forum para cast calm once 2211 01:44:11,620 --> 01:44:08,780 you're there you give yourself a unique 2212 01:44:13,390 --> 01:44:11,630 username to sign up you can't use gene 2213 01:44:15,730 --> 01:44:13,400 Steinberg I don't even think you can use 2214 01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:15,740 Captain Marvel but give yourself a name 2215 01:44:21,160 --> 01:44:18,370 and then we invite you to read and 2216 01:44:23,230 --> 01:44:21,170 participate in our forums we have David 2217 01:44:25,810 --> 01:44:23,240 Halpern the book is Journal of a UFO 2218 01:44:28,210 --> 01:44:25,820 investigator on novel the co-host is 2219 01:44:35,570 --> 01:44:28,220 Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're 2220 01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:39,480 [Music] 2221 01:44:44,530 --> 01:44:42,290 hi Ted Anderson announcing a great way 2222 01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:44,540 to listen to radio on the telephone by 2223 01:44:48,790 --> 01:44:46,730 calling seven six oh five six nine 2224 01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:48,800 seventy seven hundred you'll be hearing 2225 01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:51,530 GCM live.com programs in seconds 2226 01:44:56,470 --> 01:44:54,170 come to GCN live.com find your favorite 2227 01:44:59,350 --> 01:44:56,480 host dedicated phone number and hear 2228 01:45:02,320 --> 01:44:59,360 them 24/7 you heard me right every show 2229 01:45:04,480 --> 01:45:02,330 has a dedicated phone number stop by GC 2230 01:45:09,100 --> 01:45:04,490 and live.com and bookmark their number 2231 01:45:11,410 --> 01:45:09,110 today and again that's 7 600 5 6 9 7700 2232 01:45:12,910 --> 01:45:11,420 hi this is Ted Anderson have you ever 2233 01:45:14,440 --> 01:45:12,920 wondered why banks stockbrokers 2234 01:45:16,330 --> 01:45:14,450 investment advisors won't talk about 2235 01:45:18,850 --> 01:45:16,340 gold IRAs they've been available since 2236 01:45:20,620 --> 01:45:18,860 1986 yet the financial industry won't 2237 01:45:22,510 --> 01:45:20,630 recognize the value of gold for your 2238 01:45:24,820 --> 01:45:22,520 attire mint gold has outperformed paper 2239 01:45:26,350 --> 01:45:24,830 investments yet no word about IRAs if 2240 01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:26,360 you would like to have gold for your 2241 01:45:54,150 --> 01:45:39,650 retirement call 806-853-9949 2242 01:45:58,719 --> 01:45:55,500 [Music] 2243 01:46:01,299 --> 01:45:58,729 this takes us to the final four segments 2244 01:46:03,609 --> 01:46:01,309 of our episode with David Halperin and 2245 01:46:05,349 --> 01:46:03,619 our co-host is Chris O'Brien I'm gene 2246 01:46:08,019 --> 01:46:05,359 Steinberg you're in the para cast and 2247 01:46:10,419 --> 01:46:08,029 we're exploring of course the meaning or 2248 01:46:13,209 --> 01:46:10,429 possible meaning behind UFO abductions 2249 01:46:15,429 --> 01:46:13,219 so let's continue you started an answer 2250 01:46:18,359 --> 01:46:15,439 I had to interrupt you I'd like you to 2251 01:46:21,250 --> 01:46:18,369 continue it yeah there's the historical 2252 01:46:23,949 --> 01:46:21,260 question of what gives rise to these 2253 01:46:27,519 --> 01:46:23,959 memories of pseudo memories and then 2254 01:46:29,559 --> 01:46:27,529 there is a therapeutic question of given 2255 01:46:32,079 --> 01:46:29,569 that you've got people who are in pain 2256 01:46:34,569 --> 01:46:32,089 although it seems for the most part 2257 01:46:35,259 --> 01:46:34,579 functional given that they're in some 2258 01:46:42,669 --> 01:46:35,269 pain 2259 01:46:45,699 --> 01:46:42,679 their functionality and the two answers 2260 01:46:48,069 --> 01:46:45,709 may not be the same it may be more 2261 01:46:50,979 --> 01:46:48,079 useful for them to believe that they've 2262 01:46:53,679 --> 01:46:50,989 been abducted by extraterrestrial beings 2263 01:46:56,019 --> 01:46:53,689 but that does not make that the correct 2264 01:46:58,779 --> 01:46:56,029 answer to the historical scientific 2265 01:47:02,319 --> 01:46:58,789 question am I making sense there right 2266 01:47:04,659 --> 01:47:02,329 in other words in some cases this green 2267 01:47:06,609 --> 01:47:04,669 memory may be healthier for the 2268 01:47:08,679 --> 01:47:06,619 individual than having to go through the 2269 01:47:10,089 --> 01:47:08,689 shock and trauma reliving the real thing 2270 01:47:12,069 --> 01:47:10,099 is what you're kind of referring to 2271 01:47:14,799 --> 01:47:12,079 correct yeah something like that I mean 2272 01:47:17,379 --> 01:47:14,809 I I don't know just how you deal what 2273 01:47:20,529 --> 01:47:17,389 what is the best way of dealing with 2274 01:47:22,569 --> 01:47:20,539 traumatized people you know that's a 2275 01:47:25,959 --> 01:47:22,579 tough one and that's why again going 2276 01:47:28,589 --> 01:47:25,969 back to genes comment that you know we 2277 01:47:31,689 --> 01:47:28,599 really do need to bring the powers of 2278 01:47:34,619 --> 01:47:31,699 modern psychology and in maybe 2279 01:47:37,209 --> 01:47:34,629 psychiatry into this whole abduction 2280 01:47:40,059 --> 01:47:37,219 field because there there's too many 2281 01:47:42,309 --> 01:47:40,069 people playing with dynamite out there 2282 01:47:45,159 --> 01:47:42,319 when they're using hypnotic regression 2283 01:47:47,619 --> 01:47:45,169 to bring troubled people back into a 2284 01:47:50,079 --> 01:47:47,629 place of reliving certain very traumatic 2285 01:47:53,799 --> 01:47:50,089 events whether they be real or screen 2286 01:47:54,699 --> 01:47:53,809 memories and I really do agree with Jane 2287 01:47:56,199 --> 01:47:54,709 that we need to have trained 2288 01:48:00,489 --> 01:47:56,209 professionals doing this type of work 2289 01:48:02,250 --> 01:48:00,499 and in that an amateur could deal have 2290 01:48:04,719 --> 01:48:02,260 the best of intentions but could 2291 01:48:06,490 --> 01:48:04,729 accidentally really create some further 2292 01:48:09,100 --> 01:48:06,500 problems I think psychologically 2293 01:48:10,870 --> 01:48:09,110 these folks yeah I mean I don't know I 2294 01:48:13,540 --> 01:48:10,880 would wonder is there any documented 2295 01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:13,550 case of people being injured by being 2296 01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:16,850 hypnotized by people like blood Hopkins 2297 01:48:21,850 --> 01:48:19,970 or David Jacob how do you know I mean we 2298 01:48:24,430 --> 01:48:21,860 have this one claim by a woman in New 2299 01:48:27,490 --> 01:48:24,440 Zealand who claims she was mentally 2300 01:48:31,270 --> 01:48:27,500 abused by David Jacobs but that's of 2301 01:48:33,580 --> 01:48:31,280 course controversial and still subject 2302 01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:33,590 to dispute but then if a person is made 2303 01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:35,330 to believe something that didn't happen 2304 01:48:41,710 --> 01:48:38,090 they think that you know what et came 2305 01:48:44,620 --> 01:48:41,720 down here took your sperm raped you 2306 01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:44,630 whatever and they're creating hybrid 2307 01:48:49,330 --> 01:48:46,730 beings maybe you even have hybrid 2308 01:48:52,060 --> 01:48:49,340 children you know that's a pretty nasty 2309 01:48:54,220 --> 01:48:52,070 state of affairs if it's true and if you 2310 01:48:56,380 --> 01:48:54,230 believe something that's false it 2311 01:48:58,570 --> 01:48:56,390 doesn't help you resolve the conflict 2312 01:49:01,090 --> 01:48:58,580 within you okay what I would accept that 2313 01:49:04,090 --> 01:49:01,100 and I wonder if I could pull em aside 2314 01:49:07,300 --> 01:49:04,100 for a moment in the sort of in support 2315 01:49:10,510 --> 01:49:07,310 of my kind of opera are I turning away 2316 01:49:14,020 --> 01:49:10,520 from the et hypothesis to say if we ask 2317 01:49:18,090 --> 01:49:14,030 what makes more sense to explain highly 2318 01:49:20,350 --> 01:49:18,100 sexualized memories is it experiments by 2319 01:49:22,030 --> 01:49:20,360 extraterrestrial beings who we don't 2320 01:49:25,270 --> 01:49:22,040 know why they should be so interested in 2321 01:49:28,330 --> 01:49:25,280 our sexual equipment or memories that 2322 01:49:31,150 --> 01:49:28,340 relate to our that comes from within us 2323 01:49:33,370 --> 01:49:31,160 because we're gonna be really interested 2324 01:49:36,250 --> 01:49:33,380 in our own sexual equipment it would 2325 01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:36,260 seem to me the second alternative makes 2326 01:49:42,100 --> 01:49:38,330 a heck of a lot more sense and then you 2327 01:49:44,710 --> 01:49:42,110 still again the acceptance so okay so do 2328 01:49:47,380 --> 01:49:44,720 you have a proposal here to offer about 2329 01:49:49,570 --> 01:49:47,390 getting more professionals in here to 2330 01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:49,580 understand what's going on because 2331 01:49:53,770 --> 01:49:52,130 certainly if someone is sexually abused 2332 01:49:57,460 --> 01:49:53,780 we want to find out who the offender is 2333 01:49:59,530 --> 01:49:57,470 a family member or some body who is not 2334 01:50:02,410 --> 01:49:59,540 part of the family certainly if this is 2335 01:50:04,180 --> 01:50:02,420 happening from not just a psychological 2336 01:50:06,700 --> 01:50:04,190 standpoint but from a legal standpoint 2337 01:50:08,680 --> 01:50:06,710 we have to get to the bottom of it yeah 2338 01:50:11,440 --> 01:50:08,690 though there you get into other problems 2339 01:50:14,860 --> 01:50:11,450 which is what brought the whole sexual 2340 01:50:17,530 --> 01:50:14,870 abuse memories idea in to discredit in 2341 01:50:20,000 --> 01:50:17,540 the 1990s which is that people tended to 2342 01:50:23,629 --> 01:50:20,010 forget that what is adequate 2343 01:50:26,149 --> 01:50:23,639 dharak 11 is not necessarily adequate 2344 01:50:28,149 --> 01:50:26,159 legal evidence for putting somebody in 2345 01:50:30,169 --> 01:50:28,159 jail you know well there's also the 2346 01:50:32,779 --> 01:50:30,179 limitations after a certain number of 2347 01:50:35,149 --> 01:50:32,789 years even if you knew who did the 2348 01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:35,159 offense you can't do anything about it 2349 01:50:41,029 --> 01:50:38,730 right right I really I mean the law 2350 01:50:43,669 --> 01:50:41,039 required beyond reasonable doubt 2351 01:50:46,009 --> 01:50:43,679 history doesn't history require the 2352 01:50:47,779 --> 01:50:46,019 balance of probability okay so going 2353 01:50:50,359 --> 01:50:47,789 back through history are we saying then 2354 01:50:52,580 --> 01:50:50,369 the ancient traditions were also 2355 01:51:00,109 --> 01:50:52,590 involving cases of some sort of sexual 2356 01:51:03,379 --> 01:51:00,119 abuse yes you know it could be a 2357 01:51:05,589 --> 01:51:03,389 combination of causal elements as well 2358 01:51:09,410 --> 01:51:05,599 the whole idea of sleep paralysis 2359 01:51:12,259 --> 01:51:09,420 relating to the medieval Incubus incubi 2360 01:51:16,189 --> 01:51:12,269 and succubi for instance you know if 2361 01:51:18,319 --> 01:51:16,199 possibly if a constellation of of life 2362 01:51:20,779 --> 01:51:18,329 history events come together in a 2363 01:51:23,660 --> 01:51:20,789 certain way possibly that might be an 2364 01:51:26,779 --> 01:51:23,670 equation that then triggers what appears 2365 01:51:28,759 --> 01:51:26,789 to be to the to the witness or to the 2366 01:51:31,580 --> 01:51:28,769 experience or it appears to be an 2367 01:51:35,330 --> 01:51:31,590 abduction scenario perhaps you need a 2368 01:51:37,459 --> 01:51:35,340 combination of events in a person's life 2369 01:51:40,310 --> 01:51:37,469 coming together subconsciously to then 2370 01:51:42,740 --> 01:51:40,320 create you know a manifest an abduction 2371 01:51:46,549 --> 01:51:42,750 type experience in there in the present 2372 01:51:48,410 --> 01:51:46,559 day scenario I personally had a what I 2373 01:51:52,370 --> 01:51:48,420 considered to be an encounter experience 2374 01:51:54,770 --> 01:51:52,380 when I was six just turned seven back in 2375 01:51:56,990 --> 01:51:54,780 Bellevue Washington and this is a fully 2376 01:51:59,240 --> 01:51:57,000 conscious experience with again your 2377 01:52:01,939 --> 01:51:59,250 number three there possibly was a fourth 2378 01:52:03,830 --> 01:52:01,949 being involved in this but I was 2379 01:52:05,660 --> 01:52:03,840 followed around my neighborhood 2380 01:52:07,850 --> 01:52:05,670 basically three different houses on my 2381 01:52:09,919 --> 01:52:07,860 street at 3 in the morning by these 2382 01:52:13,129 --> 01:52:09,929 entities that were about the same size 2383 01:52:15,410 --> 01:52:13,139 as me and I don't recall any sort of 2384 01:52:17,419 --> 01:52:15,420 abduction experience and I don't think I 2385 01:52:20,930 --> 01:52:17,429 was gone long enough to really fall into 2386 01:52:24,830 --> 01:52:20,940 that particular missing time category 2387 01:52:26,990 --> 01:52:24,840 but I don't recall any sort of physical 2388 01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:27,000 contact I don't recall any sort of 2389 01:52:31,609 --> 01:52:29,730 trauma involving some sort of 2390 01:52:32,630 --> 01:52:31,619 experimentation are being taken anywhere 2391 01:52:34,990 --> 01:52:32,640 so there are case 2392 01:52:37,820 --> 01:52:35,000 is it kind of faulty the cracks in this 2393 01:52:40,670 --> 01:52:37,830 particular subject matter where people 2394 01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:40,680 have up-close and personal experiences 2395 01:52:47,690 --> 01:52:43,290 but don't appear to have interacted in 2396 01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:47,700 in a physical way with with these screen 2397 01:52:54,020 --> 01:52:50,370 images aliens however you want to call 2398 01:52:56,420 --> 01:52:54,030 them so how do you reconcile these cases 2399 01:52:59,330 --> 01:52:56,430 along with obviously what we've been 2400 01:53:01,820 --> 01:52:59,340 talking about I don't I don't all I can 2401 01:53:03,590 --> 01:53:01,830 say is that that this is something 2402 01:53:06,740 --> 01:53:03,600 that's outside the pod the explanatory 2403 01:53:08,450 --> 01:53:06,750 power of my model and I'd have to I'd 2404 01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:08,460 have to hear more details about your 2405 01:53:13,490 --> 01:53:11,040 experience and I would still be guessing 2406 01:53:18,500 --> 01:53:13,500 I would think probably my first 2407 01:53:21,410 --> 01:53:18,510 questions to you would be well how did 2408 01:53:23,780 --> 01:53:21,420 these men how did the memories of the is 2409 01:53:27,140 --> 01:53:23,790 there any correlation with how these 2410 01:53:30,050 --> 01:53:27,150 memories arose what did the experience 2411 01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:30,060 mean to you questions of that sort which 2412 01:53:33,530 --> 01:53:31,530 I would actually I would be completely 2413 01:53:35,330 --> 01:53:33,540 fascinated hearing your answer to well 2414 01:53:37,310 --> 01:53:35,340 again it was not something I was looking 2415 01:53:38,750 --> 01:53:37,320 for I had not been exposed to the mass 2416 01:53:40,940 --> 01:53:38,760 media or popular culture 2417 01:53:44,630 --> 01:53:40,950 I hadn't seen science fiction movies I 2418 01:53:48,200 --> 01:53:44,640 had not been exposed at least to my 2419 01:53:49,970 --> 01:53:48,210 knowledge now looking back I was kind of 2420 01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:49,980 sheltered from TV and movies and that 2421 01:53:54,050 --> 01:53:51,210 sort of thing until I was about eight or 2422 01:53:57,740 --> 01:53:54,060 nine it was a fully conscious experience 2423 01:53:59,900 --> 01:53:57,750 I remembered it vividly the next day my 2424 01:54:01,730 --> 01:53:59,910 whole family heard about it of course I 2425 01:54:04,790 --> 01:54:01,740 was sleepwalking and had a nightmare but 2426 01:54:07,700 --> 01:54:04,800 I knew better I had a physical I 2427 01:54:09,410 --> 01:54:07,710 actually ran tried to run out my kitchen 2428 01:54:11,780 --> 01:54:09,420 door and forgot that my dad had put the 2429 01:54:14,750 --> 01:54:11,790 screen on and banged into the door so I 2430 01:54:19,930 --> 01:54:14,760 knew I was awake so if I was having some 2431 01:54:23,510 --> 01:54:19,940 sort of experience that was sleepwalking 2432 01:54:25,370 --> 01:54:23,520 I was really deep out if you want to put 2433 01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:25,380 it that way which I don't think I was 2434 01:54:29,750 --> 01:54:27,930 but you know there are other cases like 2435 01:54:34,330 --> 01:54:29,760 this I had a very interesting case that 2436 01:54:37,010 --> 01:54:34,340 occurred to me I had the sensation of 2437 01:54:39,260 --> 01:54:37,020 invisible energies entering my room this 2438 01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:39,270 is only one of two times I've ever had 2439 01:54:45,480 --> 01:54:42,170 this feeling and it was very vivid in my 2440 01:54:46,800 --> 01:54:45,490 you know I just felt it physically 2441 01:54:49,050 --> 01:54:46,810 that these that there was something 2442 01:54:51,750 --> 01:54:49,060 invisible in my room and a group of them 2443 01:54:55,110 --> 01:54:51,760 and I found out two weeks later that my 2444 01:54:57,590 --> 01:54:55,120 neighbor had a group literally my 2445 01:55:00,210 --> 01:54:57,600 neighbor I mean not even 40 yards away 2446 01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:00,220 at about the same time period had a 2447 01:55:04,470 --> 01:55:02,170 group of these you know your typical 2448 01:55:06,330 --> 01:55:04,480 alien greys come through the wall like 2449 01:55:08,250 --> 01:55:06,340 water she described them and they seemed 2450 01:55:11,220 --> 01:55:08,260 to be fixated on her son who was in his 2451 01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:11,230 crib in you know crib next to her bed 2452 01:55:16,050 --> 01:55:14,050 and she she was very frightened of this 2453 01:55:17,910 --> 01:55:16,060 and banished them out of the room now 2454 01:55:20,550 --> 01:55:17,920 this is the wife of above the widow of 2455 01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:20,560 Artie Lange a very you know super on the 2456 01:55:25,410 --> 01:55:23,170 ball very smart and the Steep lady and 2457 01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:25,420 I'll tell you what we'll talk about this 2458 01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:27,730 in more detail in our next segment we 2459 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:29,770 have David Halpern the co-host is Chris 2460 01:55:40,740 --> 01:55:32,290 O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're in the 2461 01:55:43,110 --> 01:55:40,750 parry cast don't complain about your 2462 01:55:44,220 --> 01:55:43,120 cable bill going up and up and up do 2463 01:55:46,230 --> 01:55:44,230 something about it 2464 01:55:49,650 --> 01:55:46,240 grab a pencil and jot down this special 2465 01:55:51,690 --> 01:55:49,660 number 1 877 beat zero for my TV the 2466 01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:51,700 more cable TV rates go up the better 2467 01:55:56,220 --> 01:55:54,610 digital satellite TV looks so disabled 2468 01:55:59,010 --> 01:55:56,230 the cable and get more of your favorite 2469 01:56:00,870 --> 01:55:59,020 channels in 100% digital quality for 2470 01:56:03,690 --> 01:56:00,880 less money call one eight seven seven 2471 01:56:04,950 --> 01:56:03,700 eight zero for my TV right now to sign 2472 01:56:07,890 --> 01:56:04,960 up for packages starting as low as 2473 01:56:10,050 --> 01:56:07,900 $19.99 and up to four rooms and there's 2474 01:56:13,470 --> 01:56:10,060 no equipment to buy that includes your 2475 01:56:15,390 --> 01:56:13,480 free HD TV upgrade your free DVR upgrade 2476 01:56:17,940 --> 01:56:15,400 and your free professional installation 2477 01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:17,950 and the best part the pristine digital 2478 01:56:22,350 --> 01:56:19,690 picture and sound call one eight seven 2479 01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:22,360 seven eight zero for my TV so what are 2480 01:56:24,990 --> 01:56:23,050 you waiting for 2481 01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:25,000 pull out your major credit or debit card 2482 01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:28,210 call 187 seven eight zero for my TV one 2483 01:56:32,910 --> 01:56:30,250 eight seven seven eight zero for my TV 2484 01:56:36,390 --> 01:56:32,920 disabled be table cut costs and get more 2485 01:56:39,300 --> 01:56:36,400 call 27:17 zero for my TV one eight 2486 01:56:41,580 --> 01:56:39,310 seven seven feet zero for my TV I'm 2487 01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:41,590 Roger wrong at Midas resources if you 2488 01:56:44,850 --> 01:56:42,610 are going through a financial 2489 01:56:46,860 --> 01:56:44,860 rollercoaster because of your investment 2490 01:56:48,450 --> 01:56:46,870 in stocks bonds and other paper assets 2491 01:56:50,310 --> 01:56:48,460 perhaps you're ready for a change you 2492 01:56:52,620 --> 01:56:50,320 have an opportunity to change your 2493 01:56:54,690 --> 01:56:52,630 financial security get the stability and 2494 01:56:54,950 --> 01:56:54,700 peace of mind you deserve by investing 2495 01:56:56,780 --> 01:56:54,960 in 2496 01:56:58,459 --> 01:56:56,790 precious metals gold and silver have 2497 01:57:00,500 --> 01:56:58,469 been a form of wealth protection for 2498 01:57:01,850 --> 01:57:00,510 over 5,000 years all over the world if 2499 01:57:04,430 --> 01:57:01,860 you have seen your hard-earned money 2500 01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:04,440 lose value because of inflation sliding 2501 01:57:07,940 --> 01:57:06,330 the order etc it's time you stopped the 2502 01:57:10,100 --> 01:57:07,950 plate the answer to your problems is 2503 01:57:11,690 --> 01:57:10,110 simple gold and silver will protect your 2504 01:57:13,700 --> 01:57:11,700 assets and your purchasing power 2505 01:57:18,700 --> 01:57:13,710 physical possession of precious metals 2506 01:57:22,430 --> 01:57:18,710 IRA rollover etc call me Roger draw at 2507 01:57:24,260 --> 01:57:22,440 1-866-37 extension 178 take action today 2508 01:57:26,540 --> 01:57:24,270 when we are still accepting paper 2509 01:57:26,990 --> 01:57:26,550 dollars for gold and silver ready for a 2510 01:57:31,959 --> 01:57:27,000 change 2511 01:57:38,770 --> 01:57:31,969 call Roger draw at 1 800 662 2512 01:57:41,030 --> 01:57:38,780 8 again it's 1-866 22:37 extension 1 7 8 2513 01:57:42,380 --> 01:57:41,040 there's mounting evidence suggesting 2514 01:57:43,970 --> 01:57:42,390 that there are people government's 2515 01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:43,980 corporations and whole professions 2516 01:57:48,320 --> 01:57:45,810 intent on short-circuiting humanities 2517 01:57:50,300 --> 01:57:48,330 well-being GMO food legislation 2518 01:57:52,190 --> 01:57:50,310 protecting big agriculture the attempted 2519 01:57:54,020 --> 01:57:52,200 elimination of vitamins and alternative 2520 01:57:56,120 --> 01:57:54,030 medicines it seems their hand has been 2521 01:57:58,760 --> 01:57:56,130 tipped they want to dictate your health 2522 01:58:00,979 --> 01:57:58,770 wealth and your longevity whatever the 2523 01:58:03,770 --> 01:58:00,989 outcome we have a solution wild edible 2524 01:58:05,540 --> 01:58:03,780 food why worry about food when all has 2525 01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:05,550 been provided we imagine that we were 2526 01:58:09,470 --> 01:58:07,290 ejected from the garden never invited 2527 01:58:11,209 --> 01:58:09,480 back but the gardens still here there is 2528 01:58:13,130 --> 01:58:11,219 an endless wild abundance which grows 2529 01:58:15,500 --> 01:58:13,140 all over our green earth just waiting 2530 01:58:17,810 --> 01:58:15,510 for you to wake up and see it let auteur 2531 01:58:20,330 --> 01:58:17,820 Linda Runyon teach you how to see no get 2532 01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:20,340 prepare store and eat wild edible food 2533 01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:23,130 save money add nutrition and ignore the 2534 01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:24,930 noise when you go shopping in nature's 2535 01:58:28,640 --> 01:58:27,810 supermarket go to of the field calm and 2536 01:58:31,040 --> 01:58:28,650 get started today 2537 01:58:34,130 --> 01:58:31,050 or call one eight eight eight fifty one 2538 01:58:36,050 --> 01:58:34,140 eat free that's of the field calm or 2539 01:58:38,570 --> 01:58:36,060 call one eight eight eight five one 2540 01:58:41,479 --> 01:58:38,580 eight free and begin to see a different 2541 01:58:43,130 --> 01:58:41,489 world if you own a septic system or if 2542 01:58:45,050 --> 01:58:43,140 you're facing costly septic system 2543 01:58:46,550 --> 01:58:45,060 replacement this message is for you when 2544 01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:46,560 you want to stop paying for pump outs 2545 01:58:50,300 --> 01:58:48,090 and avoid backups when you've had enough 2546 01:58:52,580 --> 01:58:50,310 of the foul odors and costly repairs use 2547 01:58:55,160 --> 01:58:52,590 bio safe one septic solution now there's 2548 01:58:57,290 --> 01:58:55,170 an easy to use 100% guaranteed answer to 2549 01:58:59,420 --> 01:58:57,300 all your septic system problems bio safe 2550 01:59:01,190 --> 01:58:59,430 one septic solution bio safe one is 2551 01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:01,200 patented and made specifically for all 2552 01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:03,570 septic systems and made by the same team 2553 01:59:08,129 --> 01:59:05,010 of scientists who help clean up the 2554 01:59:10,410 --> 01:59:08,139 exxon valdez oil spill bio safe one 2555 01:59:12,330 --> 01:59:10,420 and remove sludge stops costly pump outs 2556 01:59:15,030 --> 01:59:12,340 and repairs and remove septic system 2557 01:59:17,100 --> 01:59:15,040 stench all with a 100% success rate see 2558 01:59:18,780 --> 01:59:17,110 what gives bio safe one septic solution 2559 01:59:21,330 --> 01:59:18,790 the advantage over any other septic 2560 01:59:25,590 --> 01:59:21,340 product at bio safe one calm that's bi o 2561 01:59:29,160 --> 01:59:25,600 sa Fe o ne comm bio safe one comm or 2562 01:59:31,379 --> 01:59:29,170 call toll-free 1-800 four six six six 2563 01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:31,389 three that's one eight six six four two 2564 01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:34,090 four six six six three bio safe one the 2565 01:59:40,410 --> 01:59:36,250 guaranteed bio-friendly money-saving way 2566 01:59:42,780 --> 01:59:40,420 to clean your septic system the GC and 2567 01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:42,790 radio network providing the world with 2568 01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:47,050 hard-hitting talk radio G C and grey 2569 01:59:55,439 --> 01:59:53,650 talk radio starts here we want to hear 2570 01:59:57,479 --> 01:59:55,449 from you if you have a comment or 2571 02:00:00,510 --> 01:59:57,489 question about the pair cast send it to 2572 02:00:03,930 --> 02:00:00,520 news at the podcast calm 2573 02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:03,940 that's news at the para cast calm and 2574 02:00:08,370 --> 02:00:05,650 don't forget to visit our famous pair 2575 02:00:11,129 --> 02:00:08,380 cast community forums at forum dot the 2576 02:00:16,930 --> 02:00:11,139 para cast comm get in on all the action 2577 02:00:21,820 --> 02:00:19,420 return with us now to those thrilling 2578 02:00:24,430 --> 02:00:21,830 days of yesteryear the teen UFO years 2579 02:00:26,020 --> 02:00:24,440 and I won't try to imitate the late Fred 2580 02:00:28,060 --> 02:00:26,030 Foy who was the announcer of the Lone 2581 02:00:29,890 --> 02:00:28,070 Ranger and also the Dick Cavett show as 2582 02:00:32,080 --> 02:00:29,900 a matter of fact we have David Halperin 2583 02:00:34,450 --> 02:00:32,090 our co-host Chris O'Brien I'm gene 2584 02:00:36,070 --> 02:00:34,460 steinberger in the power cast and you 2585 02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:36,080 were telling us something Chris that I 2586 02:00:40,330 --> 02:00:38,570 want you to continue please well the 2587 02:00:43,209 --> 02:00:40,340 point the point I'm bringing up is 2588 02:00:45,189 --> 02:00:43,219 here's a me having what I considered I 2589 02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:45,199 do consider myself to be a very good 2590 02:00:51,100 --> 02:00:48,410 aware and you know I journal I write 2591 02:00:53,290 --> 02:00:51,110 everything down I've got you know pretty 2592 02:00:55,870 --> 02:00:53,300 good sense of my environment and to have 2593 02:00:58,120 --> 02:00:55,880 a very unusual experience then you know 2594 02:00:59,740 --> 02:00:58,130 occur the same night I find out two 2595 02:01:02,140 --> 02:00:59,750 weeks later that my neighbor had 2596 02:01:05,530 --> 02:01:02,150 something even more manifest than I did 2597 02:01:07,930 --> 02:01:05,540 occur to her a super what I would call 2598 02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:07,940 credible witness and she had a very 2599 02:01:12,040 --> 02:01:10,610 special son too and that's why she 2600 02:01:14,200 --> 02:01:12,050 thought that they were interested in him 2601 02:01:17,590 --> 02:01:14,210 but the reason why I bring this up is is 2602 02:01:20,350 --> 02:01:17,600 is simple not all encounter cases have 2603 02:01:23,050 --> 02:01:20,360 this sexual element to them they don't 2604 02:01:26,110 --> 02:01:23,060 have physical interaction between the 2605 02:01:29,590 --> 02:01:26,120 the victim and witness and in these 2606 02:01:32,709 --> 02:01:29,600 screen images or physical beings if you 2607 02:01:34,540 --> 02:01:32,719 will yeah is there possibly and this is 2608 02:01:38,200 --> 02:01:34,550 my question is there possibly a way to 2609 02:01:41,320 --> 02:01:38,210 figure out to differentiate between the 2610 02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:41,330 causal elements in this I think possibly 2611 02:01:45,939 --> 02:01:43,730 someone that has manifested a 2612 02:01:48,250 --> 02:01:45,949 constellation of psychological events 2613 02:01:51,820 --> 02:01:48,260 I'm going with your your theory here 2614 02:01:55,350 --> 02:01:51,830 let's say Witnesses manifest a certain 2615 02:01:57,700 --> 02:01:55,360 constellation of psychological factors 2616 02:02:00,820 --> 02:01:57,710 through their history and through their 2617 02:02:03,250 --> 02:02:00,830 lives and if they do have sexual abuse 2618 02:02:05,830 --> 02:02:03,260 possibly those are the cases that then 2619 02:02:07,570 --> 02:02:05,840 turn into the cases where you have some 2620 02:02:10,209 --> 02:02:07,580 sort of physical examination and some 2621 02:02:12,280 --> 02:02:10,219 sort of sexual element involved you what 2622 02:02:13,630 --> 02:02:12,290 do you think of that and what I'm not 2623 02:02:16,360 --> 02:02:13,640 I'm hearing you saying is that there is 2624 02:02:19,229 --> 02:02:16,370 some phenomenon that lies beyond that 2625 02:02:22,630 --> 02:02:19,239 that in people with this constellation 2626 02:02:25,330 --> 02:02:22,640 will appear as sexual experimentation 2627 02:02:27,130 --> 02:02:25,340 and in others will take other and 2628 02:02:29,709 --> 02:02:27,140 perhaps more benign forms am i hearing 2629 02:02:30,610 --> 02:02:29,719 you right exactly so if you do have some 2630 02:02:33,610 --> 02:02:30,620 sort of 2631 02:02:36,400 --> 02:02:33,620 of sexual trauma in your life whether it 2632 02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:36,410 be inadvertent or otherwise probably the 2633 02:02:42,370 --> 02:02:38,890 most intense ones are when you have the 2634 02:02:42,970 --> 02:02:42,380 family all in incestuous type sexual 2635 02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:42,980 trauma 2636 02:02:48,610 --> 02:02:47,210 but possibly that's that's what we're 2637 02:02:51,940 --> 02:02:48,620 seeing here is we're seeing a a 2638 02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:51,950 compiling of psychological factors that 2639 02:02:57,340 --> 02:02:54,050 if it includes some sort of sexual 2640 02:03:00,130 --> 02:02:57,350 trauma then it manifests itself in a in 2641 02:03:02,350 --> 02:03:00,140 a in a more sexually oriented scenario 2642 02:03:04,540 --> 02:03:02,360 within the abduction framework that 2643 02:03:08,380 --> 02:03:04,550 makes perfect sense to me it's beyond 2644 02:03:09,850 --> 02:03:08,390 the range of my flashlight we got this 2645 02:03:12,730 --> 02:03:09,860 guy one of their million candlepower 2646 02:03:15,910 --> 02:03:12,740 spotlights so we can really shine it on 2647 02:03:18,370 --> 02:03:15,920 it a low budget show Chris I don't think 2648 02:03:23,110 --> 02:03:18,380 we're in a position to shine that kind 2649 02:03:25,540 --> 02:03:23,120 of I try thinkin here's a little bit 2650 02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:25,550 that it seems to me that if we perceive 2651 02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:28,130 and unless again as my polemic okay that 2652 02:03:34,720 --> 02:03:31,010 if we perceive the essential UFO mystery 2653 02:03:37,750 --> 02:03:34,730 as being this sort of thing then I think 2654 02:03:40,750 --> 02:03:37,760 we've got a good chance I won't say of 2655 02:03:44,500 --> 02:03:40,760 solving it but of understanding it more 2656 02:03:46,990 --> 02:03:44,510 in another 10 or 20 years if we pursue 2657 02:03:48,700 --> 02:03:47,000 this kind of line of inquiry right of 2658 02:03:50,950 --> 02:03:48,710 course we're not talking about we're not 2659 02:03:53,350 --> 02:03:50,960 bringing into it suppose it implants and 2660 02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:53,360 the physicality of scars and other other 2661 02:04:00,610 --> 02:03:56,690 things that so you know allegedly are 2662 02:04:03,700 --> 02:04:00,620 related to this I'm still uncertain in 2663 02:04:06,100 --> 02:04:03,710 my mind that many of these cases are 2664 02:04:07,540 --> 02:04:06,110 legitimate in terms of having supposed 2665 02:04:09,400 --> 02:04:07,550 physical evidence although there are 2666 02:04:12,970 --> 02:04:09,410 some cases that are pretty hard to argue 2667 02:04:15,340 --> 02:04:12,980 with where abductees exhibit real 2668 02:04:17,290 --> 02:04:15,350 physical signs of being traumatized you 2669 02:04:21,610 --> 02:04:17,300 mentioned the you know Barney Hill and 2670 02:04:23,260 --> 02:04:21,620 the genital warts scenario but I agree 2671 02:04:25,060 --> 02:04:23,270 with you I think that we need to be more 2672 02:04:26,380 --> 02:04:25,070 out-of-the-box with this I think we need 2673 02:04:28,840 --> 02:04:26,390 to bring in as gene said more 2674 02:04:32,020 --> 02:04:28,850 professional interest in this subject we 2675 02:04:34,510 --> 02:04:32,030 need funding we need a way to create a 2676 02:04:36,610 --> 02:04:34,520 scenario where we can do hard science in 2677 02:04:39,430 --> 02:04:36,620 the abduction phenomenon WC Levengood 2678 02:04:40,820 --> 02:04:39,440 who is a biophysicist at the grass lakes 2679 02:04:43,160 --> 02:04:40,830 biophysical laboratory 2680 02:04:45,890 --> 02:04:43,170 in Wisconsin came up with an idea of 2681 02:04:47,840 --> 02:04:45,900 putting hair in the in the curlers and 2682 02:04:49,790 --> 02:04:47,850 having abductees have these curlers in 2683 02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:49,800 their hair and have underman ated seeds 2684 02:04:55,540 --> 02:04:53,250 in these curlers to study the effect of 2685 02:04:58,070 --> 02:04:55,550 the experience scientifically 2686 02:05:00,020 --> 02:04:58,080 energetically on the actual unterminated 2687 02:05:02,000 --> 02:05:00,030 seeds I think it's a brilliant idea and 2688 02:05:04,580 --> 02:05:02,010 we need more thinking like that to 2689 02:05:06,620 --> 02:05:04,590 really I think ascertain scientifically 2690 02:05:08,180 --> 02:05:06,630 what's going on and at the same time 2691 02:05:10,070 --> 02:05:08,190 look at it more deeply from the 2692 02:05:11,780 --> 02:05:10,080 psychological level one thing that 2693 02:05:15,050 --> 02:05:11,790 bothers me which I should mention before 2694 02:05:16,850 --> 02:05:15,060 we go on David and Chris is that you 2695 02:05:19,190 --> 02:05:16,860 know I've suggested we've got to have 2696 02:05:20,570 --> 02:05:19,200 webcams in there and the bedrooms of 2697 02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:20,580 people being abducted to see what's 2698 02:05:26,030 --> 02:05:23,370 going on but when those webcams are 2699 02:05:27,830 --> 02:05:26,040 there either they don't work or nothing 2700 02:05:30,950 --> 02:05:27,840 is seen it never seems to happen we 2701 02:05:33,530 --> 02:05:30,960 can't capture a physical event ever 2702 02:05:35,810 --> 02:05:33,540 well the darkness is in the soul and 2703 02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:35,820 that it's a psychological issue that 2704 02:05:39,740 --> 02:05:37,530 makes perfect sense and doesn't in any 2705 02:05:42,770 --> 02:05:39,750 way detract from the importance of the 2706 02:05:44,540 --> 02:05:42,780 mystery well we have the Sherman Ranch 2707 02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:44,550 case the skinwalker ranch case where 2708 02:05:48,770 --> 02:05:46,170 they have one camera looking at another 2709 02:05:50,990 --> 02:05:48,780 camera they had an event triggering some 2710 02:05:52,700 --> 02:05:51,000 of their gear when they went out to and 2711 02:05:54,380 --> 02:05:52,710 then decant one of the cameras went down 2712 02:05:56,330 --> 02:05:54,390 and they went out to check out that 2713 02:05:58,430 --> 02:05:56,340 camera it all the wires have been ripped 2714 02:06:00,140 --> 02:05:58,440 out yet when they looked at the image of 2715 02:06:02,330 --> 02:06:00,150 the other camera that was filming that 2716 02:06:05,060 --> 02:06:02,340 camera there was no indication anything 2717 02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:05,070 happened so and in these are world-class 2718 02:06:09,590 --> 02:06:06,930 scientists now doing this work it's not 2719 02:06:12,350 --> 02:06:09,600 just some you know a webcam in a you 2720 02:06:14,080 --> 02:06:12,360 know a person's bedroom okay it's like I 2721 02:06:17,690 --> 02:06:14,090 guess what I'm suggesting is that 2722 02:06:19,760 --> 02:06:17,700 physicality is it doesn't necessarily 2723 02:06:22,010 --> 02:06:19,770 it's not predicated on actual you know 2724 02:06:24,890 --> 02:06:22,020 visual evidence sometimes things can 2725 02:06:26,860 --> 02:06:24,900 occur in the blink of an eye possibly or 2726 02:06:29,750 --> 02:06:26,870 things can occur with some sort of a 2727 02:06:32,570 --> 02:06:29,760 screen image that blocks the actual 2728 02:06:33,950 --> 02:06:32,580 event itself I'm going to ask another 2729 02:06:36,380 --> 02:06:33,960 question too since we're talking about 2730 02:06:38,930 --> 02:06:36,390 physical effects what about the so 2731 02:06:42,620 --> 02:06:38,940 called electromagnetic effect David 2732 02:06:44,180 --> 02:06:42,630 where someone in a car sees a UFO and 2733 02:06:45,710 --> 02:06:44,190 suddenly and this of course is the 2734 02:06:48,020 --> 02:06:45,720 classic image from the movie Close 2735 02:06:50,060 --> 02:06:48,030 Encounters of the Third Kind where the 2736 02:06:53,060 --> 02:06:50,070 car stops working when the UFO is in the 2737 02:06:54,350 --> 02:06:53,070 vicinity since it leaves the car powers 2738 02:06:56,780 --> 02:06:54,360 up everything's normal 2739 02:06:58,970 --> 02:06:56,790 how do we explain that well I guess I 2740 02:07:00,950 --> 02:06:58,980 mean the standard sceptical explanation 2741 02:07:05,660 --> 02:07:00,960 isn't it is that the the witnesses 2742 02:07:07,850 --> 02:07:05,670 nervous fumbles that the engine dies the 2743 02:07:11,660 --> 02:07:07,860 way sometimes my engine dies when I get 2744 02:07:14,930 --> 02:07:11,670 nervous in traffic and then once the 2745 02:07:17,899 --> 02:07:14,940 experience is over the witness's 2746 02:07:19,609 --> 02:07:17,909 serenity returns now I'm not saying that 2747 02:07:21,229 --> 02:07:19,619 necessarily will work but at least 2748 02:07:23,990 --> 02:07:21,239 that's the one that I've heard it's like 2749 02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:24,000 Lyle Watson's book the secret life of 2750 02:07:29,330 --> 02:07:27,690 inanimate objects where cars start up by 2751 02:07:32,270 --> 02:07:29,340 themselves and drive around being chased 2752 02:07:34,729 --> 02:07:32,280 by cops and make corners and speed up 2753 02:07:37,550 --> 02:07:34,739 and slow down I'm not sure if that works 2754 02:07:39,890 --> 02:07:37,560 as a blanket explanation for I'm sure it 2755 02:07:41,479 --> 02:07:39,900 does for some cases but we have too many 2756 02:07:44,419 --> 02:07:41,489 cases where trained observers have had 2757 02:07:48,140 --> 02:07:44,429 this happen military people for instance 2758 02:07:51,290 --> 02:07:48,150 obviously law enforcement scientists an 2759 02:07:52,910 --> 02:07:51,300 air traffic controller I talked to had a 2760 02:07:55,580 --> 02:07:52,920 similar thing happened he swore he never 2761 02:07:58,040 --> 02:07:55,590 touched the ignition he never all he did 2762 02:08:00,890 --> 02:07:58,050 was was slow down take his foot off the 2763 02:08:03,379 --> 02:08:00,900 gas and look and boom the car died and 2764 02:08:05,689 --> 02:08:03,389 then as soon as the thing left he hadn't 2765 02:08:08,330 --> 02:08:05,699 moved except his head boom the car 2766 02:08:12,020 --> 02:08:08,340 started up on its own so maybe that's 2767 02:08:15,050 --> 02:08:12,030 maybe the human mind has the ability to 2768 02:08:18,140 --> 02:08:15,060 manifest electrical effects like this 2769 02:08:20,750 --> 02:08:18,150 but I haven't seen any empirical 2770 02:08:22,100 --> 02:08:20,760 evidence that would support that here's 2771 02:08:24,500 --> 02:08:22,110 another kind of effect it's called a 2772 02:08:26,870 --> 02:08:24,510 commercial David Halperin's our guest 2773 02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:26,880 Chris O'Brien's the co-host I'm gene 2774 02:08:39,050 --> 02:08:30,290 Steinberg you're in loop Erica's 2775 02:08:41,370 --> 02:08:39,060 [Music] 2776 02:08:43,709 --> 02:08:41,380 graphic converter is the image 2777 02:08:46,680 --> 02:08:43,719 manipulation tool for the rest of us it 2778 02:08:48,899 --> 02:08:46,690 does not use any database you get full 2779 02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:48,909 control of all your files want to view 2780 02:08:53,850 --> 02:08:51,370 the images of a folder drag it into 2781 02:08:56,640 --> 02:08:53,860 graphic converter and a powerful browser 2782 02:08:58,770 --> 02:08:56,650 opens up to show your image files you 2783 02:09:01,020 --> 02:08:58,780 could use it for slideshows you could 2784 02:09:03,390 --> 02:09:01,030 use it to import images from digital 2785 02:09:05,550 --> 02:09:03,400 cameras or from scanners need to do some 2786 02:09:07,919 --> 02:09:05,560 image editing you can do that too in 2787 02:09:10,229 --> 02:09:07,929 graphic converter also print catalogs 2788 02:09:12,450 --> 02:09:10,239 convert from so many formats 2789 02:09:14,879 --> 02:09:12,460 I can't even list them download now to 2790 02:09:17,970 --> 02:09:14,889 see if graphic converter is good for you 2791 02:09:20,310 --> 02:09:17,980 like one and a half million other users 2792 02:09:23,580 --> 02:09:20,320 guess what you can download a version 2793 02:09:27,540 --> 02:09:23,590 that is mostly full feature try it out 2794 02:09:30,990 --> 02:09:27,550 and if you like it it's just 3495 for 2795 02:09:36,180 --> 02:09:31,000 graphic converter from Lemke soft calm 2796 02:09:39,709 --> 02:09:36,190 that's lem que es oft calm Lemke soft 2797 02:09:42,570 --> 02:09:39,719 calm for my favorite graphic converter 2798 02:09:44,280 --> 02:09:42,580 skip the long lines and high prices at 2799 02:09:46,740 --> 02:09:44,290 the florists because right now at 2800 02:09:49,050 --> 02:09:46,750 proflowers.com you can get two dozen 2801 02:09:51,200 --> 02:09:49,060 assorted roses with a free glass vase 2802 02:09:54,540 --> 02:09:51,210 and a free box of chocolates for just 2803 02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:54,550 $29.99 just visit proflowers.com look 2804 02:09:58,459 --> 02:09:55,810 for the radial microphone in the upper 2805 02:10:01,649 --> 02:09:58,469 right corner and enter the secret code 2806 02:10:03,450 --> 02:10:01,659 44:44 unlike overpriced flowers at the 2807 02:10:05,879 --> 02:10:03,460 florist which sit in the cooler for days 2808 02:10:08,370 --> 02:10:05,889 our flowers are sent fresh cut from the 2809 02:10:10,290 --> 02:10:08,380 field and are guaranteed to stay fresh 2810 02:10:13,020 --> 02:10:10,300 and beautiful for at least seven full 2811 02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:13,030 days just visit proflowers.com today to 2812 02:10:17,970 --> 02:10:15,730 get two dozen 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--> 02:10:48,929 military comm that 2827 02:10:53,870 --> 02:10:51,840 a I and II military comm one of the last 2828 02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:53,880 surviving true military surplus stores 2829 02:10:58,520 --> 02:10:56,130 in the country go online now to main 2830 02:11:00,290 --> 02:10:58,530 military comm and discover a source for 2831 02:11:02,600 --> 02:11:00,300 hard-to-find surplus items had true 2832 02:11:04,790 --> 02:11:02,610 surplus prices surplus gun cleaning kits 2833 02:11:07,310 --> 02:11:04,800 as low as $2.99 complete chemical suits 2834 02:11:08,810 --> 02:11:07,320 as long as 1199 see our huge selection 2835 02:11:11,479 --> 02:11:08,820 of gas mask filters and accessories 2836 02:11:14,180 --> 02:11:11,489 finish at m10 gas masks are three for 2837 02:11:15,800 --> 02:11:14,190 $30 and Swiss filters are three for $12 2838 02:11:18,380 --> 02:11:15,810 searching for strike-anywhere matches 2839 02:11:20,120 --> 02:11:18,390 main military calm handsome plus a whole 2840 02:11:21,380 --> 02:11:20,130 new product line of survival and first 2841 02:11:23,810 --> 02:11:21,390 aid kits and lots more 2842 02:11:26,630 --> 02:11:23,820 get free shipping on orders over $50 2843 02:11:29,419 --> 02:11:26,640 only at main military comm that's ma I 2844 02:11:31,100 --> 02:11:29,429 and II military comm or colleague seven 2845 02:11:33,020 --> 02:11:31,110 seven six oh eight oh one seven nine 2846 02:11:35,750 --> 02:11:33,030 eight seven seven six oh eight oh one 2847 02:11:39,020 --> 02:11:35,760 seven nine main military comm the main 2848 02:11:40,640 --> 02:11:39,030 name in military supply normal blood 2849 02:11:42,860 --> 02:11:40,650 pressure naturally how would that make 2850 02:11:45,530 --> 02:11:42,870 you feel I'm dawn from the Mexican 2851 02:11:47,390 --> 02:11:45,540 January of 2000 I had a heart attack 2852 02:11:50,060 --> 02:11:47,400 then my real health began going downhill 2853 02:11:52,100 --> 02:11:50,070 and I had high blood pressure high blood 2854 02:11:54,410 --> 02:11:52,110 sugar and poor vision and I really 2855 02:11:56,330 --> 02:11:54,420 wasn't sleeping well I was a mess pretty 2856 02:11:58,040 --> 02:11:56,340 much Don reports dramatic improvements 2857 02:12:00,320 --> 02:11:58,050 with heart and body extracts I started 2858 02:12:02,180 --> 02:12:00,330 taking a heart and body extract and from 2859 02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:02,190 within a few days I started sleeping a 2860 02:12:06,320 --> 02:12:03,810 lot better my blood pressure 2861 02:12:08,630 --> 02:12:06,330 normalized my blood sugar normalized and 2862 02:12:10,100 --> 02:12:08,640 my sleep really did improve experience 2863 02:12:11,780 --> 02:12:10,110 these benefits and more when your body 2864 02:12:14,000 --> 02:12:11,790 gets what it needs with the assistance 2865 02:12:16,669 --> 02:12:14,010 of heart and body extract order at HB 2866 02:12:20,750 --> 02:12:16,679 extract calm or call eight six six two 2867 02:12:26,050 --> 02:12:20,760 nine five 5305 Betts HB extract calm or 2868 02:12:30,770 --> 02:12:28,790 ninth day I saw dramatic improvements 2869 02:12:33,590 --> 02:12:30,780 from taking part in body extra details 2870 02:12:36,320 --> 02:12:33,600 at HB extract calm or call eight six six 2871 02:12:40,610 --> 02:12:36,330 two nine five fifty three zero five four 2872 02:12:43,220 --> 02:12:40,620 heart and body extract America's number 2873 02:12:44,830 --> 02:12:43,230 one source for independent talk retail 2874 02:12:51,100 --> 02:12:44,840 for over a decade 2875 02:12:59,350 --> 02:12:54,080 you're in the park a sport you never 2876 02:13:04,370 --> 02:13:01,760 our co-host by the way is Chris O'Brien 2877 02:13:06,320 --> 02:13:04,380 I'm gene Steinberger in the para cast we 2878 02:13:08,450 --> 02:13:06,330 return for the last two segments our 2879 02:13:10,520 --> 02:13:08,460 visit with David Halperin author of 2880 02:13:13,700 --> 02:13:10,530 Journal of a UFO investigator a novel 2881 02:13:16,520 --> 02:13:13,710 about the teenage UFO years before we go 2882 02:13:18,110 --> 02:13:16,530 on David David in writing this book I'm 2883 02:13:20,210 --> 02:13:18,120 gonna do this because I'm an egomaniac 2884 02:13:22,490 --> 02:13:20,220 because you have to be an egomaniac to 2885 02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:22,500 go on the radio every week and do a show 2886 02:13:28,550 --> 02:13:24,930 of any kind so if I pick up this book 2887 02:13:32,600 --> 02:13:28,560 and go through and I've read a lot of it 2888 02:13:35,450 --> 02:13:32,610 fascinating novel nearly toured 75 300 2889 02:13:37,910 --> 02:13:35,460 pages do I find myself represented here 2890 02:13:41,090 --> 02:13:37,920 or not you do not you are not in the 2891 02:13:42,890 --> 02:13:41,100 book Jane oh no he was he was really 2892 02:13:45,140 --> 02:13:42,900 looking forward to being like you know 2893 02:13:48,260 --> 02:13:45,150 maybe even a composite of characters or 2894 02:13:50,080 --> 02:13:48,270 something but the point here if we look 2895 02:13:52,090 --> 02:13:50,090 at this book will we recognize 2896 02:13:55,370 --> 02:13:52,100 personalities in the UFO field 2897 02:13:58,520 --> 02:13:55,380 represented here no you will not because 2898 02:14:01,580 --> 02:13:58,530 I chose to write the book not about my 2899 02:14:04,940 --> 02:14:01,590 actual experience as a teenage UFO 2900 02:14:07,250 --> 02:14:04,950 investigator but starting off from 2901 02:14:09,770 --> 02:14:07,260 certain well well there are two things 2902 02:14:12,680 --> 02:14:09,780 that are autobiographical in it one is 2903 02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:12,690 the family background the the the 2904 02:14:19,520 --> 02:14:16,170 protagonist of the book like me and his 2905 02:14:21,500 --> 02:14:19,530 adolescence with a dying mother okay and 2906 02:14:24,380 --> 02:14:21,510 that that background which which 2907 02:14:26,900 --> 02:14:24,390 occurred certainly so it's it's evident 2908 02:14:28,550 --> 02:14:26,910 at the beginning of the book that and 2909 02:14:31,180 --> 02:14:28,560 that that is something I know from my 2910 02:14:33,260 --> 02:14:31,190 own adolescence the other thing that's 2911 02:14:36,620 --> 02:14:33,270 autobiographical is a bit more complex 2912 02:14:39,380 --> 02:14:36,630 that I remember some of the fantasies 2913 02:14:41,090 --> 02:14:39,390 some of the dreams these and I think 2914 02:14:42,590 --> 02:14:41,100 they were dreams although conceivably 2915 02:14:45,980 --> 02:14:42,600 they could be what could have been 2916 02:14:49,220 --> 02:14:45,990 waking fantasies that I had in those 2917 02:14:51,890 --> 02:14:49,230 years and in the book I asked the 2918 02:14:55,070 --> 02:14:51,900 question what would happen if these 2919 02:14:58,430 --> 02:14:55,080 fantasies were set in motion for example 2920 02:15:00,170 --> 02:14:58,440 I remember I had it I had a dream though 2921 02:15:01,979 --> 02:15:00,180 it might have been awaking fantasy I 2922 02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:01,989 think it was a dream 2923 02:15:06,930 --> 02:15:05,530 I was in this big rambling old house I 2924 02:15:10,109 --> 02:15:06,940 think somewhere out in the country 2925 02:15:13,279 --> 02:15:10,119 attending a meeting of a scientific 2926 02:15:16,620 --> 02:15:13,289 society of very serious teenagers 2927 02:15:20,399 --> 02:15:16,630 interested in exploring the realms 2928 02:15:23,459 --> 02:15:20,409 beyond conventional science one of whom 2929 02:15:28,220 --> 02:15:23,469 was a beautiful blonde girl in an 2930 02:15:31,709 --> 02:15:28,230 evening dress and I took that scene and 2931 02:15:34,319 --> 02:15:31,719 what if the narrator of the journal 2932 02:15:38,509 --> 02:15:34,329 really was at a meeting of such a 2933 02:15:41,930 --> 02:15:38,519 society and what if there was a 2934 02:15:45,779 --> 02:15:41,940 beautiful blonde as she turns out to be 2935 02:15:49,379 --> 02:15:45,789 seductress and thief at the meeting and 2936 02:15:52,560 --> 02:15:49,389 what if she and Danny take a shine to 2937 02:15:55,290 --> 02:15:52,570 each other what if and that's where the 2938 02:15:58,529 --> 02:15:55,300 story goes so that the real-life UFO 2939 02:15:59,220 --> 02:15:58,539 investigators I don't think appear in it 2940 02:16:03,029 --> 02:15:59,230 at all 2941 02:16:04,919 --> 02:16:03,039 Gina you disappointed he was convinced 2942 02:16:07,859 --> 02:16:04,929 that he just had to have been in there 2943 02:16:12,149 --> 02:16:07,869 somewhere but maybe subconsciously he's 2944 02:16:14,250 --> 02:16:12,159 in there I am the villain you manifested 2945 02:16:16,169 --> 02:16:14,260 him subconsciously in your writing by 2946 02:16:18,419 --> 02:16:16,179 the way UFO investigator in this book 2947 02:16:22,169 --> 02:16:18,429 David tell our listeners does he really 2948 02:16:25,379 --> 02:16:22,179 encounter any extraordinary events or is 2949 02:16:28,350 --> 02:16:25,389 it mostly about the people not so much 2950 02:16:29,939 --> 02:16:28,360 about the science fiction it's about the 2951 02:16:32,120 --> 02:16:29,949 people I mean it's the book is 2952 02:16:35,040 --> 02:16:32,130 essentially a coming-of-age story 2953 02:16:37,769 --> 02:16:35,050 Lula's covers I have ever seen on a book 2954 02:16:40,980 --> 02:16:37,779 I love the dust jacket cover it's just 2955 02:16:44,940 --> 02:16:40,990 it's so striking did you did the 2956 02:16:47,309 --> 02:16:44,950 publisher do that yet I know I I had no 2957 02:16:49,080 --> 02:16:47,319 hand at all they they presented it to me 2958 02:16:51,690 --> 02:16:49,090 and told me this was my cover whether I 2959 02:16:53,940 --> 02:16:51,700 liked it or not it's well they did a 2960 02:16:56,190 --> 02:16:53,950 good one for you it's excellent yeah as 2961 02:16:57,870 --> 02:16:56,200 publishers do and sometimes they do an 2962 02:17:00,030 --> 02:16:57,880 awfully good job this is an incredible 2963 02:17:02,009 --> 02:17:00,040 cover incredibly distinctive it's also a 2964 02:17:03,599 --> 02:17:02,019 hardcover book by the way listen to that 2965 02:17:05,290 --> 02:17:03,609 you know breaking over on a hardcover 2966 02:17:07,450 --> 02:17:05,300 book we don't see the review 2967 02:17:09,459 --> 02:17:07,460 on the cover I love it is it going to be 2968 02:17:12,759 --> 02:17:09,469 like an Amazon Kindle version or an 2969 02:17:14,859 --> 02:17:12,769 iBook version well there's already going 2970 02:17:17,349 --> 02:17:14,869 to be an audio version I don't know if 2971 02:17:22,209 --> 02:17:17,359 it's available yet who didn't want to 2972 02:17:24,609 --> 02:17:22,219 know you know know a person I I've seen 2973 02:17:27,459 --> 02:17:24,619 the name but it rings no bells for me 2974 02:17:30,849 --> 02:17:27,469 the audio is available from Blackstone 2975 02:17:33,129 --> 02:17:30,859 or will be available from Blackstone and 2976 02:17:35,799 --> 02:17:33,139 I think I may have mentioned that the 2977 02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:35,809 book has been published in Spain under 2978 02:17:42,160 --> 02:17:39,050 the title diario de investigador today 2979 02:17:45,099 --> 02:17:42,170 old nice and it will be published also 2980 02:17:50,049 --> 02:17:45,109 in Italian and German version what about 2981 02:17:51,099 --> 02:17:50,059 the movie rights not yet told we have to 2982 02:17:53,229 --> 02:17:51,109 think who's going to play our 2983 02:17:56,049 --> 02:17:53,239 protagonist who's going to play yeah 2984 02:17:57,429 --> 02:17:56,059 young David Halpern so what age group is 2985 02:18:00,639 --> 02:17:57,439 this coming-of-age is this something 2986 02:18:03,490 --> 02:18:00,649 like the mid teens or so yeah yeah I 2987 02:18:07,209 --> 02:18:03,500 mean that's what that's what the story 2988 02:18:13,149 --> 02:18:07,219 begins with the protagonist turning 13 2989 02:18:16,479 --> 02:18:13,159 and it ends when he's 17 and it's 2990 02:18:19,089 --> 02:18:16,489 essentially about him and what and the 2991 02:18:22,029 --> 02:18:19,099 story that he needs to tell himself in 2992 02:18:23,799 --> 02:18:22,039 order to cope with his real life the 2993 02:18:27,729 --> 02:18:23,809 book of course is Journal of a UFO 2994 02:18:29,109 --> 02:18:27,739 investigator by David Halperin and it's 2995 02:18:31,870 --> 02:18:29,119 a lot different than what you might 2996 02:18:34,929 --> 02:18:31,880 expect because this is the kind of story 2997 02:18:38,189 --> 02:18:34,939 where even if UFOs aren't part of the 2998 02:18:40,809 --> 02:18:38,199 picture it would be a fascinating story 2999 02:18:43,779 --> 02:18:40,819 well I'm sure it looks it looks at 3000 02:18:45,729 --> 02:18:43,789 motivations and it looks at the 3001 02:18:47,649 --> 02:18:45,739 development of critical thinking I would 3002 02:18:49,839 --> 02:18:47,659 imagine I haven't had a chance to read 3003 02:18:51,639 --> 02:18:49,849 the book yet although I do plan on it of 3004 02:18:53,469 --> 02:18:51,649 course I'm traveling now so I'd it's 3005 02:18:56,859 --> 02:18:53,479 been a little rough for me to do much 3006 02:18:59,500 --> 02:18:56,869 but besides that work but I can't wait 3007 02:19:01,870 --> 02:18:59,510 to dive into it I especially now that 3008 02:19:03,639 --> 02:19:01,880 I've been introduced to David and talked 3009 02:19:05,879 --> 02:19:03,649 to him and I'm really looking forward to 3010 02:19:09,759 --> 02:19:05,889 it I think that this is a really 3011 02:19:11,740 --> 02:19:09,769 interesting literary project in that so 3012 02:19:14,500 --> 02:19:11,750 many people in this field or looking at 3013 02:19:16,099 --> 02:19:14,510 had the nuts and bolts and the theories 3014 02:19:17,869 --> 02:19:16,109 and then you know the 3015 02:19:20,689 --> 02:19:17,879 bantering back and forth different 3016 02:19:23,269 --> 02:19:20,699 hypotheses and people tend to forget 3017 02:19:27,619 --> 02:19:23,279 that it's it's real people that are out 3018 02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:27,629 there developing themselves as they go 3019 02:19:32,929 --> 02:19:30,090 about learning about themselves in life 3020 02:19:34,969 --> 02:19:32,939 and and how to investigate the 3021 02:19:36,379 --> 02:19:34,979 mysterious and how to look at the things 3022 02:19:39,739 --> 02:19:36,389 that they can't explain in their life 3023 02:19:41,449 --> 02:19:39,749 and I think this is a brilliant idea and 3024 02:19:46,759 --> 02:19:41,459 I can't wait to dive into it and really 3025 02:19:50,630 --> 02:19:46,769 really embrace it as a as a look at the 3026 02:19:52,010 --> 02:19:50,640 motivations if nothing else of of kids 3027 02:19:54,710 --> 02:19:52,020 that are involved in this especially 3028 02:19:57,889 --> 02:19:54,720 back in the in the golden years the 3029 02:19:59,300 --> 02:19:57,899 glory years of this field yeah now one 3030 02:20:01,729 --> 02:19:59,310 of the questions I'm going to ask and I 3031 02:20:04,040 --> 02:20:01,739 think this is where we frame it we have 3032 02:20:06,769 --> 02:20:04,050 this teen UFO movement in the 50s and 3033 02:20:09,080 --> 02:20:06,779 60s and maybe to some part in the 70s we 3034 02:20:13,309 --> 02:20:09,090 don't see that happening in the 21st 3035 02:20:15,619 --> 02:20:13,319 century is there maybe because teens are 3036 02:20:17,899 --> 02:20:15,629 so much different today or because UFOs 3037 02:20:21,170 --> 02:20:17,909 don't hold that fascination anymore 3038 02:20:23,989 --> 02:20:21,180 I don't think it's the latter my sense 3039 02:20:27,559 --> 02:20:23,999 is that UFOs have a have an enduring 3040 02:20:29,300 --> 02:20:27,569 fascination I mean III remember it was 3041 02:20:31,819 --> 02:20:29,310 actually what I was doing an email 3042 02:20:34,729 --> 02:20:31,829 interview on UFOs several months ago 3043 02:20:36,979 --> 02:20:34,739 that when I was waiting for my 3044 02:20:43,069 --> 02:20:36,989 correspondent to send me a question I 3045 02:20:45,979 --> 02:20:43,079 was I looked at cnn.com and the top news 3046 02:20:48,290 --> 02:20:45,989 story was a fireball seen in the sky 3047 02:20:50,899 --> 02:20:48,300 somewhere over Kansas which was being 3048 02:20:53,210 --> 02:20:50,909 viewed by something like twice as many 3049 02:20:55,699 --> 02:20:53,220 people as we're viewing the second top 3050 02:20:57,290 --> 02:20:55,709 story which was somewhat of tigerwood 3051 02:21:00,889 --> 02:20:57,300 the mistress was getting arrested for 3052 02:21:06,500 --> 02:21:00,899 drunk driving and usually that's really 3053 02:21:08,389 --> 02:21:06,510 the top story and consistently it seems 3054 02:21:12,199 --> 02:21:08,399 to me when you when when there is a UFO 3055 02:21:15,019 --> 02:21:12,209 story so-and-so on cnn.com that is the 3056 02:21:16,550 --> 02:21:15,029 one that people gravitate to and I don't 3057 02:21:21,139 --> 02:21:16,560 know if your if you all seen that movie 3058 02:21:25,519 --> 02:21:21,149 the Fourth Kind but when it when it came 3059 02:21:29,030 --> 02:21:25,529 out in the at the end of 2009 it was one 3060 02:21:31,790 --> 02:21:29,040 of the top grossing movies in the 3061 02:21:34,850 --> 02:21:31,800 this country and then it fell off very 3062 02:21:38,030 --> 02:21:34,860 quickly after the review started panning 3063 02:21:43,460 --> 02:21:38,040 it and I myself for the thought it was a 3064 02:21:46,040 --> 02:21:43,470 very poor movie but the the theme of it 3065 02:21:48,650 --> 02:21:46,050 which is UFO abductions is something 3066 02:21:51,950 --> 02:21:48,660 that appeals deeply to people so IIIi 3067 02:21:54,740 --> 02:21:51,960 don't think that UFOs have lost one bit 3068 02:22:00,920 --> 02:21:54,750 of their power now whether they still 3069 02:22:06,400 --> 02:22:00,930 have the function for adolescents in 3070 02:22:10,490 --> 02:22:06,410 difficult situations such as I was in 3071 02:22:12,860 --> 02:22:10,500 that they did then I I don't know I mean 3072 02:22:15,860 --> 02:22:12,870 I was intrigued when I heard Jerry Clark 3073 02:22:18,170 --> 02:22:15,870 say that in your interview that there 3074 02:22:19,730 --> 02:22:18,180 that there don't seem to be that there 3075 02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:19,740 doesn't think that there are teen UFO 3076 02:22:24,770 --> 02:22:23,010 scene anymore and I don't have I I can 3077 02:22:26,060 --> 02:22:24,780 offer nothing more than the wildest 3078 02:22:28,610 --> 02:22:26,070 guess is why not 3079 02:22:31,100 --> 02:22:28,620 we have David Halpern the co-host is 3080 02:22:35,940 --> 02:22:31,110 Chris O'Brien I'm gene Steinberg you're 3081 02:22:42,530 --> 02:22:38,800 [Music] 3082 02:22:44,809 --> 02:22:42,540 hey neighbors new ants offers dragon 3083 02:22:47,599 --> 02:22:44,819 speech recognition for variety of 3084 02:22:50,269 --> 02:22:47,609 platforms Dragon Dictate for Mac Dragon 3085 02:22:52,820 --> 02:22:50,279 NaturallySpeaking 11 for Windows and 3086 02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:52,830 Dragon mobile apps for blackberry iPhone 3087 02:22:58,010 --> 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02:25:33,870 six nine one two six oh eight see what 3158 02:25:40,250 --> 02:25:36,390 our powder seeds and oil can do for you 3159 02:25:41,809 --> 02:25:40,260 at hemp usa.org they all laugh when I 3160 02:25:44,300 --> 02:25:41,819 told them my body cleansing tonic was 3161 02:25:46,099 --> 02:25:44,310 tea but after ten days my body feels way 3162 02:25:48,939 --> 02:25:46,109 more energized and I've lost in the 3163 02:25:51,380 --> 02:25:48,949 fifteen pounds they're not laughing now 3164 02:25:53,660 --> 02:25:51,390 that's what John from Oklahoma said 3165 02:25:55,610 --> 02:25:53,670 about life change tea in the six months 3166 02:25:57,469 --> 02:25:55,620 of being on the tea all my digestive 3167 02:25:58,580 --> 02:25:57,479 problems have cleared up my energy 3168 02:26:00,920 --> 02:25:58,590 levels have gone way up 3169 02:26:02,870 --> 02:26:00,930 and my constipation problems are no more 3170 02:26:05,059 --> 02:26:02,880 and that's what Michelle from California 3171 02:26:07,849 --> 02:26:05,069 said about life change tea from get 3172 02:26:09,590 --> 02:26:07,859 fatigue calm the amazing all-natural tea 3173 02:26:12,590 --> 02:26:09,600 that cleanses your body from toxins 3174 02:26:13,790 --> 02:26:12,600 chemicals bacteria viruses and molds 3175 02:26:16,160 --> 02:26:13,800 while helping to lower high blood 3176 02:26:17,750 --> 02:26:16,170 pressure high cholesterol lower blood 3177 02:26:20,630 --> 02:26:17,760 sugar levels and help you lose weight 3178 02:26:23,059 --> 02:26:20,640 life change tea has no caffeine and is 3179 02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:23,069 all-natural all organic go to get the 3180 02:26:27,979 --> 02:26:25,410 tea calm today or call nine two eight 3181 02:26:30,920 --> 02:26:27,989 three zero eight zero four zero eight 3182 02:26:33,469 --> 02:26:30,930 that's get the tea calm or call nine two 3183 02:26:35,990 --> 02:26:33,479 eight three zero eight zero four zero 3184 02:26:37,650 --> 02:26:36,000 eight life changed to really changes 3185 02:26:41,790 --> 02:26:37,660 fingers 3186 02:26:42,780 --> 02:26:41,800 are you tired of searching for great 3187 02:26:46,650 --> 02:26:42,790 talk-radio 3188 02:26:51,511 --> 02:26:46,660 more important searching over we are 3189 02:26:54,091 --> 02:26:51,521 the GCM radio network this is your Ma's 3190 02:26:56,490 --> 02:26:54,101 League editor or a sausage smear and I'm 3191 02:26:59,190 --> 02:26:56,500 here to say a good word or two about the 3192 02:27:02,131 --> 02:26:59,200 power cast which I believe is the gold 3193 02:27:15,390 --> 02:27:02,141 standard of paranormal radio listen to 3194 02:27:16,980 --> 02:27:15,400 it if you can thank you Jim Mosley go 3195 02:27:19,080 --> 02:27:16,990 ahead to have your board as a listener I 3196 02:27:20,790 --> 02:27:19,090 remind you if you have a comment or a 3197 02:27:22,770 --> 02:27:20,800 question about the power cast of things 3198 02:27:25,560 --> 02:27:22,780 you hear the things you'd like to hear 3199 02:27:28,200 --> 02:27:25,570 please write us directly music the power 3200 02:27:31,320 --> 02:27:28,210 cast calm that's nîmes at the power cast 3201 02:27:34,230 --> 02:27:31,330 calm I promise we read every email 3202 02:27:35,881 --> 02:27:34,240 message we get now David Halpern is 3203 02:27:37,680 --> 02:27:35,891 joining us for the final session the 3204 02:27:39,480 --> 02:27:37,690 book is called Journal of a UFO 3205 02:27:42,000 --> 02:27:39,490 investigator a novel kind of a 3206 02:27:44,610 --> 02:27:42,010 coming-of-age novel I look forward to 3207 02:27:46,530 --> 02:27:44,620 having this sold maybe as a TV movie 3208 02:27:49,020 --> 02:27:46,540 would be the most appropriate 3209 02:27:49,950 --> 02:27:49,030 I wonder but we'll have to see he'll 3210 02:27:51,810 --> 02:27:49,960 he'll take anything 3211 02:27:54,600 --> 02:27:51,820 Chris O'Brien's the co-host you're in 3212 02:27:57,091 --> 02:27:54,610 the power cast and as we look towards 3213 02:27:59,940 --> 02:27:57,101 the UFO field in general there has been 3214 02:28:02,881 --> 02:27:59,950 ongoing movements of one type or another 3215 02:28:05,341 --> 02:28:02,891 for some sort of disclosure dating back 3216 02:28:07,770 --> 02:28:05,351 from the 50s with major Donald Kehoe 3217 02:28:09,180 --> 02:28:07,780 today various forms of request for 3218 02:28:12,360 --> 02:28:09,190 disclosure the government knows 3219 02:28:15,450 --> 02:28:12,370 something about UFOs they must reveal it 3220 02:28:16,710 --> 02:28:15,460 but the UFO that you talk about the 3221 02:28:19,200 --> 02:28:16,720 government wouldn't even care about 3222 02:28:21,660 --> 02:28:19,210 would they I doubt it I'm not sure how 3223 02:28:24,480 --> 02:28:21,670 much they cared about UFOs of any good 3224 02:28:26,190 --> 02:28:24,490 answer so the people who are hoping for 3225 02:28:30,000 --> 02:28:26,200 disclosure they're whistling in the dark 3226 02:28:31,920 --> 02:28:30,010 how would be my guess I mean as EJ 3227 02:28:35,100 --> 02:28:31,930 rappelled ended his classic book only 3228 02:28:37,500 --> 02:28:35,110 time will tell but I mean I was it 3229 02:28:40,140 --> 02:28:37,510 wasn't there some talk a few weeks ago 3230 02:28:42,330 --> 02:28:40,150 that the WikiLeaks was going to produce 3231 02:28:45,091 --> 02:28:42,340 something about UFOs and it turned out 3232 02:28:48,210 --> 02:28:45,101 to be just a joke that are that most 3233 02:28:51,060 --> 02:28:48,220 somebody used UFOs as a kind of metaphor 3234 02:28:53,700 --> 02:28:51,070 I seriously doubt that 3235 02:28:54,511 --> 02:28:53,710 anything's gonna turn up yep I agree 3236 02:28:57,091 --> 02:28:54,521 with you there 3237 02:29:00,301 --> 02:28:57,101 I could always predict I think having 3238 02:29:04,341 --> 02:29:00,311 follow this for so many years that even 3239 02:29:07,620 --> 02:29:04,351 if UFOs are et nothing will be disclosed 3240 02:29:09,870 --> 02:29:07,630 yeah okay but then that brings back the 3241 02:29:11,791 --> 02:29:09,880 other question too about possible 3242 02:29:14,070 --> 02:29:11,801 government interactions you can say then 3243 02:29:16,650 --> 02:29:14,080 that when people remember something 3244 02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:16,660 happening near Roswell New Mexico 3245 02:29:21,511 --> 02:29:19,570 it wasn't the crash of a UFO I mean I 3246 02:29:24,680 --> 02:29:21,521 found carlock's book tremendously 3247 02:29:28,080 --> 02:29:24,690 persuasive that it was a top-secret 3248 02:29:30,810 --> 02:29:28,090 espionage project so naturally there was 3249 02:29:33,030 --> 02:29:30,820 a cover-up in a situation like that to 3250 02:29:36,570 --> 02:29:33,040 be fair about it also and I'm not taking 3251 02:29:40,200 --> 02:29:36,580 a side here if you have this top-secret 3252 02:29:42,511 --> 02:29:40,210 craft the average military person 3253 02:29:45,060 --> 02:29:42,521 wouldn't know there'd be no need to know 3254 02:29:47,041 --> 02:29:45,070 they wouldn't have to know this so they 3255 02:29:49,410 --> 02:29:47,051 could see this happening and maybe they 3256 02:29:51,810 --> 02:29:49,420 say it's a flying saucer and then the 3257 02:29:53,910 --> 02:29:51,820 management comes down the leadership the 3258 02:29:56,041 --> 02:29:53,920 commanders say oh no this is a 3259 02:29:56,430 --> 02:29:56,051 top-secret thing there's nothing to do 3260 02:29:58,530 --> 02:29:56,440 with that 3261 02:30:00,270 --> 02:29:58,540 you got to retract the story which is of 3262 02:30:03,421 --> 02:30:00,280 course where the mystery starts then 3263 02:30:05,461 --> 02:30:03,431 they say oh it was a balloon yeah I mean 3264 02:30:07,110 --> 02:30:05,471 if lock is right and I found two I find 3265 02:30:09,841 --> 02:30:07,120 them very persuasive it was a balloon 3266 02:30:12,900 --> 02:30:09,851 but part of not just an ordinary weather 3267 02:30:15,480 --> 02:30:12,910 balloon it was part of a balloon train 3268 02:30:17,881 --> 02:30:15,490 used for taking radio equipment up to 3269 02:30:19,470 --> 02:30:17,891 the edge of the stratosphere I mean it's 3270 02:30:21,541 --> 02:30:19,480 an interesting question if you think 3271 02:30:25,320 --> 02:30:21,551 about it like the you know you remember 3272 02:30:27,930 --> 02:30:25,330 the UFO that Thomas Mantell chase was 3273 02:30:30,091 --> 02:30:27,940 that really a UFO and it was a skyhook 3274 02:30:32,370 --> 02:30:30,101 balloon which i think is the 3275 02:30:34,740 --> 02:30:32,380 conventional explanation of it in a 3276 02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:34,750 sense that what a UFO because hardly 3277 02:30:39,810 --> 02:30:37,210 anybody knew those things existed it was 3278 02:30:41,610 --> 02:30:39,820 basically an unfortunate accident yeah 3279 02:30:43,650 --> 02:30:41,620 but I mean that the object being chased 3280 02:30:45,720 --> 02:30:43,660 was something that in fact was 3281 02:30:48,660 --> 02:30:45,730 unidentified in terms of the knowledge 3282 02:30:51,180 --> 02:30:48,670 that most people had so when we hear 3283 02:30:54,270 --> 02:30:51,190 stories then and in our previous week's 3284 02:30:56,761 --> 02:30:54,280 episode we had George filer eastern UFO 3285 02:30:58,830 --> 02:30:56,771 representative for MUFON knees the 3286 02:31:00,841 --> 02:30:58,840 eastern investigator he's got a 3287 02:31:02,900 --> 02:31:00,851 publication called filers files where it 3288 02:31:05,360 --> 02:31:02,910 collects UFO tales from around the world 3289 02:31:10,610 --> 02:31:05,370 and he talked of cases where he saw a 3290 02:31:12,950 --> 02:31:10,620 UFO as a navigator for the Air Force and 3291 02:31:14,570 --> 02:31:12,960 that it was tracked on radar so the 3292 02:31:17,960 --> 02:31:14,580 question of course we ask what did 3293 02:31:20,330 --> 02:31:17,970 George filer see uh-huh because that 3294 02:31:23,929 --> 02:31:20,340 doesn't fit into the imagination does it 3295 02:31:26,990 --> 02:31:23,939 I don't know and of course he also 3296 02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:27,000 talked about instances where they tried 3297 02:31:33,080 --> 02:31:30,450 to shoot at the UFO and something may or 3298 02:31:36,010 --> 02:31:33,090 may not have fired back or at least they 3299 02:31:39,710 --> 02:31:36,020 didn't end up coming back to their base 3300 02:31:42,920 --> 02:31:39,720 that is to say that some other airplane 3301 02:31:45,880 --> 02:31:42,930 went after the UFO they tried shooting 3302 02:31:49,219 --> 02:31:45,890 at it and somehow the plane disappeared 3303 02:31:51,350 --> 02:31:49,229 exactly crashed somehow or like the of 3304 02:31:54,200 --> 02:31:51,360 course the famous Philip was that Philip 3305 02:31:56,750 --> 02:31:54,210 Mantell Thomas Mantell who you know they 3306 02:31:59,540 --> 02:31:56,760 I guess the official explanation now is 3307 02:32:01,010 --> 02:31:59,550 that he was chasing Venus no I think 3308 02:32:02,060 --> 02:32:01,020 that was the first one I don't think 3309 02:32:04,280 --> 02:32:02,070 that ever made sense 3310 02:32:06,530 --> 02:32:04,290 I don't think Venus is ever visible in 3311 02:32:08,510 --> 02:32:06,540 daylight but I think the standard 3312 02:32:10,580 --> 02:32:08,520 explanation was that it was a balloon of 3313 02:32:11,929 --> 02:32:10,590 the it was called a skyhook balloon I 3314 02:32:13,969 --> 02:32:11,939 don't know tell you the truth I don't 3315 02:32:16,940 --> 02:32:13,979 know exactly what it did but like so 3316 02:32:20,210 --> 02:32:16,950 many projects in the immediate post-war 3317 02:32:21,980 --> 02:32:20,220 era it was kept tightly under wraps so 3318 02:32:24,860 --> 02:32:21,990 hardly anybody knew though that these 3319 02:32:27,469 --> 02:32:24,870 giant balloons existed so naturally 3320 02:32:29,450 --> 02:32:27,479 somebody would say who there's a weird 3321 02:32:33,020 --> 02:32:29,460 thing in the sky let me go up and take a 3322 02:32:34,639 --> 02:32:33,030 look that you know since nobody knew 3323 02:32:37,520 --> 02:32:34,649 that these are hardly anybody knew that 3324 02:32:39,920 --> 02:32:37,530 these skyhook balloons existed naturally 3325 02:32:41,240 --> 02:32:39,930 somebody seeing one would would say you 3326 02:32:43,880 --> 02:32:41,250 know there's something weird up here 3327 02:32:46,040 --> 02:32:43,890 that needs to be investigated and go up 3328 02:32:47,420 --> 02:32:46,050 after it and in a sense I mean I guess 3329 02:32:49,700 --> 02:32:47,430 it depends on how you define these 3330 02:32:52,310 --> 02:32:49,710 things it was an unidentified flying 3331 02:32:55,790 --> 02:32:52,320 object something that didn't fit into 3332 02:32:57,740 --> 02:32:55,800 any of the categories that people know 3333 02:33:00,260 --> 02:32:57,750 other than those times well the original 3334 02:33:02,389 --> 02:33:00,270 intention if you follow what Edward 3335 02:33:04,660 --> 02:33:02,399 rappelled said in this book the report 3336 02:33:07,040 --> 02:33:04,670 on unidentified flying objects is that 3337 02:33:08,929 --> 02:33:07,050 you did it that way because you're just 3338 02:33:10,700 --> 02:33:08,939 saying here's something flying around 3339 02:33:14,060 --> 02:33:10,710 that we don't know therefore it's 3340 02:33:16,491 --> 02:33:14,070 unidentified yeah period it doesn't have 3341 02:33:19,041 --> 02:33:16,501 to be ET like 3342 02:33:20,421 --> 02:33:19,051 so would you call a would you call from 3343 02:33:22,551 --> 02:33:20,431 sort of balloon that nobody knows that 3344 02:33:24,770 --> 02:33:22,561 this or hardly anybody knows that this 3345 02:33:27,230 --> 02:33:24,780 would you call that an unidentified 3346 02:33:28,850 --> 02:33:27,240 flying object by that definition of 3347 02:33:31,041 --> 02:33:28,860 course you would except of course 3348 02:33:34,341 --> 02:33:31,051 ultimately it becomes identified it's 3349 02:33:36,531 --> 02:33:34,351 only the ten or twenty percent of cases 3350 02:33:40,701 --> 02:33:36,541 we can't figure out that form the core 3351 02:33:43,701 --> 02:33:40,711 of the so-called UFO mystery yeah so at 3352 02:33:46,011 --> 02:33:43,711 this point having studied UFOs all these 3353 02:33:47,871 --> 02:33:46,021 years coming to the conclusions you do 3354 02:33:54,831 --> 02:33:47,881 where do you go from here promoting 3355 02:33:58,511 --> 02:33:54,841 strictly the book okay I'm following you 3356 02:34:01,251 --> 02:33:58,521 in here I think UFOs are a myth and 3357 02:34:02,421 --> 02:34:01,261 following young I don't mean that to 3358 02:34:04,791 --> 02:34:02,431 disparage them 3359 02:34:08,001 --> 02:34:04,801 I think myths are fantastically 3360 02:34:11,390 --> 02:34:08,011 important to borrow a phrase from Freud 3361 02:34:14,331 --> 02:34:11,400 I think they're the Royal Road into the 3362 02:34:17,961 --> 02:34:14,341 human soul and I think there's a limit 3363 02:34:21,941 --> 02:34:17,971 to what you can do with mis if you write 3364 02:34:26,091 --> 02:34:21,951 about them in analytic academic prose 3365 02:34:31,121 --> 02:34:26,101 what I am doing what I did in this in 3366 02:34:33,321 --> 02:34:31,131 this novel what I want to do in future 3367 02:34:35,720 --> 02:34:33,331 fiction project because I think I'm 3368 02:34:40,371 --> 02:34:35,730 gonna be mostly writing fiction from now 3369 02:34:42,711 --> 02:34:40,381 on is exploring this by retelling it I 3370 02:34:46,100 --> 02:34:42,721 mean one of the people who read the book 3371 02:34:48,680 --> 02:34:46,110 and wrote wrote nice things on the back 3372 02:34:52,011 --> 02:34:48,690 of the back cover Keith Donahue called 3373 02:34:55,821 --> 02:34:52,021 the called my my novel a compelling read 3374 02:34:59,691 --> 02:34:55,831 a compelling reimagining of the myth of 3375 02:35:03,591 --> 02:34:59,701 UFOs intertwined with the deepest 3376 02:35:08,091 --> 02:35:03,601 longing of a teenage boy which I would 3377 02:35:10,041 --> 02:35:08,101 understand as a twining together of the 3378 02:35:12,861 --> 02:35:10,051 overarching myths that which is 3379 02:35:17,361 --> 02:35:12,871 archetypal and that which is individual 3380 02:35:19,341 --> 02:35:17,371 and I imagine myself writing novels that 3381 02:35:23,151 --> 02:35:19,351 do that kind of thing 3382 02:35:26,691 --> 02:35:23,161 not necessarily with UFOs but bringing 3383 02:35:29,571 --> 02:35:26,701 us together with our myths would you 3384 02:35:30,290 --> 02:35:29,581 then create a fantasy novel or a science 3385 02:35:32,719 --> 02:35:30,300 fiction novel 3386 02:35:35,420 --> 02:35:32,729 that reason I might what else can you 3387 02:35:37,490 --> 02:35:35,430 say I'm working now often Donna I've 3388 02:35:40,219 --> 02:35:37,500 told you about this man Cardozo the 3389 02:35:42,830 --> 02:35:40,229 Jewish mystic of the 17th century I'm 3390 02:35:46,639 --> 02:35:42,840 working off and on about a novel in 3391 02:35:50,440 --> 02:35:46,649 which a woman psychiatrist in the year 3392 02:35:53,450 --> 02:35:50,450 2000 has a patient who begins to recover 3393 02:35:56,270 --> 02:35:53,460 fragment memories and dream fragments of 3394 02:36:00,920 --> 02:35:56,280 corridors oh because I want to explore 3395 02:36:04,250 --> 02:36:00,930 what is it like if a 17th century mystic 3396 02:36:06,800 --> 02:36:04,260 and would-be Messiah carries his mythic 3397 02:36:10,309 --> 02:36:06,810 world into the beginning of the 21st 3398 02:36:14,030 --> 02:36:10,319 century and manages to persuade a space 3399 02:36:17,420 --> 02:36:14,040 skeptical 21st century woman to go along 3400 02:36:18,889 --> 02:36:17,430 with it what happened to these people we 3401 02:36:20,450 --> 02:36:18,899 can't wait to see it 3402 02:36:22,040 --> 02:36:20,460 we're just about out of time Chris 3403 02:36:24,679 --> 02:36:22,050 O'Brien where do we find more of the 3404 02:36:26,389 --> 02:36:24,689 things that you do well if you're in LA 3405 02:36:28,190 --> 02:36:26,399 that's where you'll find me right now 3406 02:36:30,950 --> 02:36:28,200 but I do have a website it's called our 3407 02:36:33,980 --> 02:36:30,960 strange planet calm it is a strange 3408 02:36:36,679 --> 02:36:33,990 planet it's our strange planet and you 3409 02:36:38,450 --> 02:36:36,689 can find my entire database of my many 3410 02:36:40,550 --> 02:36:38,460 years in the San Luis Valley there and 3411 02:36:43,190 --> 02:36:40,560 also find information on how to get 3412 02:36:46,700 --> 02:36:43,200 signed copies of my books Chris O'Brien 3413 02:36:49,130 --> 02:36:46,710 our co-hosts David Halperin after all 3414 02:36:51,620 --> 02:36:49,140 these years very nice to talk to you 3415 02:36:53,389 --> 02:36:51,630 again and listen to your experiences and 3416 02:36:56,150 --> 02:36:53,399 knowledge thanks for joining us this 3417 02:37:02,880 --> 02:36:56,160 week on the power cast thank you so much 3418 02:37:07,780 --> 02:37:05,410 parodist is calculated presentation of 3419 02:37:10,410 --> 02:37:07,790 making the impossible incorporated tune 3420 02:37:18,510 --> 02:37:10,420 in next week for a new adventure M